Shanti Sena part 7

Shanti Sena – part 7

In a message dated 98-03-15 16:01:11 EST, you write:

> The second problem is the folks buying drugs from anyone at our gathering. If you buy drugs, you are the problem just as much as the person selling.

right on!!! the whole commericalization of the gatherings sucks-- you want the a-campers to not drink for a week or so, well at least some of them have an excuse via addiction-- why can’t those folks who go to trading circles all day and fleece their brothers and sisters take a week off-- makes me sick baking bread for folks who sit and brag about how much or how well they profitted at the trading circle--you want to run someone off from the gathering, run the capitalists off-------------------s

On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 02:06:10 EST X989 <X9...@aol.com> writes:

> right on!!! the whole commericalization of the gatherings sucks-- you want the a-campers to not drink for a week or so, well at least some of them have an excuse via addiction-- why can’t those folks who go to trading circles all day and fleece their brothers and sisters take a week off-- makes me sick baking bread for folks who sit and brag about how much or how well they profitted at the trading circle--you want to run someone off from the gathering, run the capitalists off-------------------s

Trading circle would be great if we could stick to barter instead of useing babalyons peices of paper.

The only problem is that its kind of hard to barter beads for gas and food to get back home on after a gathering.

Bablyon requires that you make a living for yourself and this is how alot of us do it.So untill the Rainbow becomes a fulltime way of life instead 2 weeks every summer capitolism is here to stay.

heres hoping for an end to capitolism. Wandering Bear

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In a message dated 98-03-19 04:48:35 EST, you write:

> Trading circle would be great if we could stick to barter instead of useing babalyons peices of paper.
> The only problem is that its kind of hard to barter beads for gas and food to get back home on after a gathering.

bartering is considered a commericial event just like the exchange of greensbacks, which are after all only a convience item. both are illegal in the national forest unless you are a commercial event with the proper permit-- the trading circle endangers our status and insults our claim to be a free non-profit event-- one has all year to plan for attending a gathering, if one cannot get their shit together enough to find a few bucks for gas, food or other traveling expenses, maybe they should not come. i mean really, is it necessary to sit at a gathering and conduct commerce all day?--------------s

hey guys ~

i kinda think that the trading circle is nice. putting aside all thoughts of wether or not it goes along with rainbow-like values, i enjoy seeing the fruits of people’s labor and beautiful crafts. i agree, it is a bit commercial, but it’s also fun.

have a loverly day!
heaven

In a message dated 98-03-19 12:17:37 EST, you write:

> i kinda think that the trading circle is nice. putting aside all thoughts of wether or not it goes along with rainbow-like values, i enjoy seeing the fruits of people’s labor and beautiful crafts.

if you put aside what rainbow-like values are you no longer have a rainbow gathering, so you might as well throw in a rock band,sell tickets and call it some kind of commercial tour-- beautiful crafts, like canned peaches,tuna fish, tobacco and snikers?----------------s

On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:23:47 EST X989 <X9...@aol.com> writes:

> one has all year to plan for attending a gathering, if one cannot get their shit together enough to find a few bucks for gas, food or other traveling expenses, maybe they should not come. i mean really, is it necessary to sit at a gathering and conduct commerce all day?

I guess every one has something they dont think belongs at the gathering dont they.

Money is the main reason I havent been able to get to a gathering.

If i coulnt go to trading circle and sell some of my stuff I wouldnt be able to goto the gathering.

> Money is the main reason I havent been able to get to a gathering.
> If i coulnt go to trading circle and sell some of my stuff I wouldnt be able to goto the gathering.
> WB

I am sorry that is true for you, Wandering Bear, but there isn’t supposed to be any selling of anything. That’s why it’s called *Trading* circle and not Vendor’s circle. I don’t ever want to witness folks selling stuff.

love,
spring

At 10:33 AM 3/19/98 -0700, Heaven wrote:

> i kinda think that the trading circle is nice. putting aside all thoughts of wether or not it goes along with rainbow-like values,

Oh, yes, let us not trouble ourselves with abstract concerns, such as “values.”

BTW, the foregoing reply is totally sarcastic.

Thomas

> Oh, yes, let us not trouble ourselves with abstract concerns, such as “values.”
> BTW, the foregoing reply is totally sarcastic.
> Thomas

hey now!

oh boy, we’re on a roll now.

first, let’s save the drunks, or protect ourselves from them, or something...

now we want the trading trolls to leave...

most of my experience has been at regionals, but i’m tellin ya, i’ve had a regular, non-commercial blast at trade circles...

i’m dropping in on this,but i have always used it as a re-cycle circle.

i.e., do you want what i really don’t need anymore?

is there anything you have that you can’t wear, that i might be able to? etc.,

and i think it’s the way of commerce amongxt us’ns in the future, when the irs gets real reformed and is damn gone.

love,
maddy clare

On Thu, 19 Mar 98 12:50:00 PST “Randall,Holly-SEA” <RA...@perkinscoie.com> writes:

> I am sorry that is true for you, Wandering Bear, but there isn’t supposed to be any selling of anything. That’s why it’s called *Trading* circle and not Vendor’s circle. I don’t ever want to witness folks selling stuff.

Just like I dont every want to witnes folks drinking alcohol.

> i’m dropping in on this,but i have always used it as a re-cycle circle.

that’s what i thought?!!

> i.e., do you want what i really don’t need anymore?
> is there anything you have that you can’t wear, that i might be able to? etc.,

yeah, i sorta thought bartering was the commercial/economic base a lot of us counter-culture, groovy hippie (yada yada yada) kinds were aimin’ for ?
and it’s not selling.

> when the irs gets real reformed and is damn gone.

HO!

> love,
> maddy clare

love,
spring

> > Money is the main reason I havent been able to get to a gathering.
> > If i coulnt go to trading circle and sell some of my stuff I wouldnt be able to goto the gathering.
> I am sorry that is true for you, Wandering Bear, but there isn’t supposed to be any selling of anything. That’s why it’s called *Trading* circle and not Vendor’s circle.
> I don’t ever want to witness folks selling stuff.

hey now!

WB, your sister is right! we never, ever exchange cash for anything at a gathering. we do collect a hat at main circle for supply runs, and sometimes kitchens will post a hat, or pass it, if they’re not participating in the main hat...

but i personally would go OFF (can you bellow shanta sena?) if i ever saw it, because it does endanger our very existance.

if you ever make it home, youll consider it sacred too, hope you get here soon.

i must say that the fact that you’ve never been to a gathering kinda helps me understand where you’re coming from on some of this stuff... i read it from other folks, but never saw it from you, so i didn’t really believe it.

that’s because we practice acceptance, in as much as possible...

we love you!
maddy clare

In a message dated 98-03-19 16:34:51 EST, you write:

> BTW, the foregoing reply is totally sarcastic.
> Thomas

thomas, scarcasim from you, tsk,tsk, who would have thought---------------s

In a message dated 98-03-19 15:37:36 EST, you write:

> If i coulnt go to trading circle and sell some of my stuff I wouldnt be able to goto the gathering.
> WB

wait a minute, are you telling me that a gathering is the only place you can sell your “stuff”? what are you selling that only folks sitting in a national forest will buy?--------------s

In a message dated 98-03-19 17:48:07 EST, you write:

> i’m dropping in on this,but i have always used it as a re-cycle circle. i.e., do you want what i really don’t need anymore?
> is there anything you have that you can’t wear, that i might be able to?

that’s all well and fine, but would you mind staying for clean-up and help haul out the ton or so of clothing, mostly green algea covered and rotten smelling that folks leave behind, at the tradeing circle?------------------------s

In a message dated 98-03-19 16:31:22 EST, you write:

> I don’t ever want to witness folks selling stuff.
> love,
> spring

then you had best avoid the tradeing circle completely---------------s

In a message dated 98-03-19 18:41:03 EST, you write:

> yeah, i sorta thought bartering was the commercial/economic base a lot of us counter-culture, groovy hippie (yada yada yada) kinds were aimin’ for ?
> and it’s not selling.

i’m not seeing how barter is any different than exchangeing greenbacks, for example you trade a rock for a plant, or you trade a rock for a greenback which you then trade for a plant. the only difference i see is useing greenbacks you avail yourself to a wider variety of choices----------------------s

Heaven wrote:

i agree heaven, i’ve never been to a gathering, but i like to go to festivals and see all of the neat things folks have put their time and energy into! i myself make clothes and stuff, because i like to provide people with comfy nice new stuff-it’s fun and anybody that says they don’t like seeing handmade crafts has not seen one of my dreamcatchers!!! :D but seriously, i think there will definitly be people there only interested in $$$, and they may litter and cause a stink (*heehee, literally!) but if you want to provide a microcosm for the macrocosm, you’re gonna have goods being traded, etc-everybody needs stuff, and it’s also a really fun way to meet new people and be proud of something you’ve accomplished! (as i feel when i make something new and shiny and beautiful!) i guess mean traders (or sellers in some cases) are just something you havve to deal with...). moonchild

On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:58:21 EST5EDT “Madelyn Powell” <pow...@gacsrv.gactr.uga.edu> writes:

> WB, your sister is right! we never, ever exchange cash for anything at a gathering. we do collect a hat at main circle for supply runs, and sometimes kitchens will post a hat, or pass it, if they’re not participating in the main hat...

I dont think that setting up a Majic Hat for my own personal expenses would work very well.That would be like being one of the drunks sitting at the front gate panhandleing.

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On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:50:45 EST X989 <X9...@aol.com> writes:

> wait a minute, are you telling me that a gathering is the only place you can sell your “stuff”? what are you selling that only folks sitting in a national forest will buy?--------------s

No .It just that trading circle would be how I pay for my trip to and from the gathering.

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From: X9...@aol.com (X989)

> i’m not seeing how barter is any different than exchangeing greenbacks, for example you trade a rock for a plant, or you trade a rock for a greenback which you then trade for a plant. the only difference i see is useing greenbacks you avail yourself to a wider variety of choices

I also don’t really get the ‘no money’ angle.......except maybe it’s the fear (realistic) of the gathering turning into a commercialized kinda deadhead swapmeet or something...

something just occured to me...would silver,gold or precious stones be o.k. for bartering?

Love,James

Howlin’,growlin’,prowlin’ http://www.cataholic.com/james
all you need is a strong heart and nerves of steel.....

From: wanderi...@juno.com (Wandering Bear)

> No .It just that trading circle would be how I pay for my trip to and from the gathering.

WB....just trade your stuff for gold,silver jewelry and/or precious and semi-precious stones.....then go to some town and trade that for green at a pawn shop......or maybe trade your stuff for gallons of gas or plane/train/bus tickets or a guaranteed ride with someone goin’ your way or whatever.....what I’m saying is where there’s a will there’s a way.......just use your imagination.......maybe some of the creative positive folks here could give you a few more pointers......

Love,James

Howlin’,growlin’,prowlin’ http://www.cataholic.com/james
all you need is a strong heart and nerves of steel.....

Wandering Bear (wanderi...@juno.com) wrote:

> No .It just that trading circle would be how I pay for my trip to and from the gathering.

Holey Moley Batman I’ve got it!!! Find the drunk “capitalists” in the trading circle, hook them up with the drunk gate keepers, (is there a group or area we have some hate for I’m forgetting??) and place our personal judgement on “them” as a group, I mean they must all be really bad people....If these issues are “truly” cuasing a problem for the family then they will be discussed at a counsel, (ie: vending w/o permit, putting people in ?danger? at A-camp.) I agree with an earlier post that this is a dicussion group and these are topics for discussion, not personal attacks on our fellow agr’ers or brothers and sisters that are not on-line. I happen to enjoy a glass of fine scotch occasionally, and have admiration for those with the gift of creating beautiful crafts with their hands.

What we are talking about here, IMHO, woulb be the classic old cliche “The few ruin it for the many.” I am responsible for my behavior, not anyone else’s and I like it this way. Lets discuss the issues, (traders refuse, rape, abuse), is the cause of rape and or abuse directly related to a person who was drunk? If so, is this person capable of the same thing sober? Do all the folks in traders lane (shakedown st.) abuse our Mother or is it just the capitalists? Wandering Bear, LOL, you can call me “Rambling Writer”!! Wrong thread WB but as I’m here now, do you feel the same fear of folks who smoke marijuana, dose, shroom, peyote, or any other mood altering substance?? Peace to ya’ll at A-camp and traders lane, you are part of my family and I will Love Ya’ll Unconditionally cause I know ya’ll are doin’ what your heart and soul is telling you!!! Don’t know about ya’ll, but after a very enjoyable couple of weeks of camping at a gathering I just dig a nice cold RedTail Ale from Healdsburg, Ca.(no offense and all respect and Love for our bro/sis’s in Da’ program, it has been the only solution for many loved ones, nothing heavier than a 5th step) James looking forward to joining you at the gate, where I will humbly let the A-campers show me the ropes, and please forgive I forgot your name, but I would be honored to help clean our mother after the traders are gone with my brother who posted this. This is a consequence of growth, the “good ole days” come and go. My first Dead show in Providece, RI, ‘79, bought my tic for 12$ at the door, heads cleaned parking lot before leaving town...........

Happy Spring
I will do my best
to try to understand
how tight your shoes are.................

Wandering Bear wrote:

> I guess every one has something they dont think belongs at the gathering dont they. Money is the main reason I havent been able to get to a gathering. If i coulnt go to trading circle and sell some of my stuff I wouldnt be able to goto the gathering.

Morning Bear,

Hm, there is a measure of the will of the group here. In that it IS ok for the group to want to move their merchants off to the parking lot. Or for that matter off onto private adjoining property.

Just as it is ok for people who for what ever reason have difficulty dealing with a-camp to want this problem to be addressed too.

Inasmuch as I am going to be one of the more disabled people who are likely to attend. and am one of those trading types. I would prefer it that we were condemned to the same private property (a-camp & traders).

*sigh* let us get on with the business of living, the groovies can hum mantra’s with their heads stuck in anotomically unlikely places.

Tom Cagle

nh-a...@juno.com

You guys better watch out. I remember a few years back when Gandhi got really drunk at A-camp, he ended up punching out a F.S. guy and one of his ol’ ladies had to sell her walkman at tradeing circle to make bail. Then, as if to make matters worse, while he was still drunk, the LEOs had him sign a permit application for the gathering. When will he learn, that zany Hindu.

Love Life, Be Happy
Brad

To s............

I really appreciate your practical input. Thanks!!

{{{{{{{ WEE LOOOVE YOOOU}}}}}}}

bliss

Rob Savoye wrote:
[in a post that was deleted from Google’s archive]

> The Trader’s need to show more concern for their family as a whole, and less selfishness. (or we’ll sick WB on them :-) Like A-camp, this is an endless and useless discussion.

Actually, just like the gathering, the newsgroup is an endless parade of changing characters. I realize that some of you have been saying the same thing for years and are bored with saying it. But remember the people who are hearing it are lots of new folks. I think the biggest problem with the gatherings as a whole is that the base of knowledge is not built upon. I think the most important thing that any of us can do is share our ideas, experiences, and tell the stories of what and how and why.

I personally rebel against this standard Rainbow philosophy that if you just come to a gathering, you’ll get it? All of us don’t work that way. Some do and some need more explanation. If this family is going to evolve, we need to discuss what was done and why and analyze the info and make educated and informed decisions. And if rehashing the A-Camp scene or Trade Circle will help ten people understand these situations and all their complexities then it’s worth it’s weight in gold.

Just as we are here to learn, we are here to teach and teaching means saying the same thing over and over and over. That’s what we do with our children so why not with our family?

Love
Karin

In a message dated 98-03-19 16:31:22 EST, you write:

> > I don’t ever want to witness folks selling stuff.
> > love,
> > spring
> then you had best avoid the tradeing circle completely---------------s

i didn’t notice selling before? hmm. then again, i was never real interested in trading circle. except to quickly look around, see if there was anything i needed and could trade. but maybe i should be. i mean this does mess with the family being able to gather, doesn’t it?

In a message dated 98-03-19 22:32:33 EST, you write:

> No .It just that trading circle would be how I pay for my trip to and from the gathering.
> WB

you see, that’s just my whole point-- we started out as an aborted rock concert and over the years developed into a peace and healing gathering, if the concept now is to become a trade fair in the woods then it’s time for me to bail out-- i remember when the traders first approached council in N.C. with this whole trading circle idea it was supposed to be a seperate space, in a circle in a seperate meadow where crafts people would exchange skills and knowledge-- over the years i’ve watched it turn into a rude strip mall along the main trail with very aggressive folks trading such hand crafts as pot, tobbacco, canned food, flashlight batteries and other assorted crap. none of this bothered me much until the first fire in wyoming where the traders refused to move so a fire bucket line could be established to put out a burning teepee, apparently it was asking to much for them to their blankets-- i also watched a plain clothed forest service leo hang around the trade line in CO. and photo all the cash exchanges that were happening, it really surprises me that they haven’t used this commercial concept to shut us down-- but hey, what do the venders care, there will always be another market place-- my wish is that folks could learn to come home and give freely from their hearts without regard for their pockets--------------------s

In a message dated 98-03-19 22:37:02 EST, you write:

> I dont think that setting up a Majic Hat for my own personal expenses would work very well.That would be like being one of the drunks sitting at the front gate panhandleing.
> WB

or one of the traders filling their pockets at the tradeing circle

In a message dated 98-03-20 02:33:44 EST, you write:

> I also don’t really get the ‘no money’ angle.......except maybe it’s the fear (realistic) of the gathering turning into a commercialized kinda deadhead swapmeet or something...isn’t it?
> something just occured to me...would silver,gold or precious stones be o.k. for bartering?

barter is barter-- an act of commerce regardless of the commodity-------------s

Hi Karin !

As a new one I say Mighty fine, mighty fine. I am too old and not nieve as I was as a pup. I don’t just jump in with both feet for the sake of jumping, or because I’m told to just do it. I like to investigate a little first. Yup, I have in the past found myself in strange or even dangerous situations, simply cause I failed to use my noggin.

So for me there are no silly questions, tho to some they may appear so. I appreciate the info & wisdom, and the discussion of both the up & down sides of whatever. Even though it makes some sound like they just scooted bare butt over some coarse sand paper :) It’s all a part of it.

I try to keep *mindful* of the sensitivities, needs, etc. of others, as you and many have been here. But, there are times when I get so wrapped up in the seriousness of myself. I can tend to overlook others point of view and cop an attitude, till it’s lovingly adjusted. Like you pointed out here with the, just come, but when I read that in other posts it caused an alarm to go off in my head. Then I tried to filter too much neg. info instead of just (simply) thinking, I need more real specific explanations. Real straight forward stuff I could not read into :) like the Shanti sena. Now I got it! ;) Questions answered, some asked, some not, yet still answered.

Make sense????

Luv, spoor

> barter is barter-- an act of commerce regardless of the commodity-------------s

okay, i think i finally got it. your belief is that no goods or services should be there unless freely given? is that it? no matter how honorable many people think bartering is or what a preferable alternative to putting prices on things/services and receiving money in return. so if i offer a massage in exchange for an apricot, this is offensive to you? because it’s commerce?

hmmm. i’ll have to think on this.

spring

> i didn’t notice selling before? hmm. then again, i was never real interested in trading circle. except to quickly look around, see if there was anything i needed and could trade. but maybe i should be. i mean this does mess with the family being able to gather, doesn’t it?

I dont see how. The FS dosent want the Gatherings there in the first place,and trading circle dosnt change that.

And its not like the Rainbow Family organizes or advertizes it no more then the Grateful Dead organized the Parking lot seane.

It just appers.The ones responsible for its exsistance are the traders themselves.

> Actually, just like the gathering, the newsgroup is an endless parade of changing characters. I realize that some of you have been saying the same thing for years and are bored with saying it. But remember the people who are hearing it are lots of new folks.

Yes!!! Thank *you*, Karin.

love,
spring

> over the years i’ve watched it turn into a rude strip mall along the main trail with very aggressive folks trading such hand crafts as pot, tobbacco, canned food, flashlight batteries and other assorted crap. none of this bothered me much until the first fire in wyoming where the traders refused to move so a fire bucket line could be established to put out a burning teepee, apparently it was asking to much for them to their blankets--

If trading circle is like that i wont sell in it.Thats not a good busness apnospher.

Even at the parking lot at the Dead concerts the venders had more sence then to crowed the main drag.

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right on.............bubba

“There are two major products to come out of Berkeley - LSD & UNIX.
We don’t believe this to be a coincidence” Steven Wright

william f. ‘bubba” ruehl, fantasy mountain, harmony, md. 21773 usa

> Make sense????
> Luv, spoor

you make lots of sense to me, spoor - as you have in previous posts. and for what it’s worth, i like how you say what you have to say. you sound like a really kind soul. but you are in indiana, aren’t you? why on earth, for?!

i get to ask that that way cuz i was born there!

love ya!
spring

hi,

spring wrote:

> so if i offer a massage in exchange for an apricot, this is offensive to you? because it’s commerce?
> hmmm. i’ll have to think on this.
> spring

oooooh, don’t think too hard- i plan on bringing lottsa apricots- and sum thoughts bout a massage from you, too!

“bobbib bob”

I’m gonna plant a couple of those trees out back!

eeerrrrrrr....chocolate covered apricots.

> oooooh, don’t think too hard- i plan on bringing lottsa apricots- and sum thoughts bout a massage from you, too!
> “bobbib bob”

okay - don’t forget - i’ll be lookin’ for those apricots. :)

OM<SHIVA>my brother!!LOL!

Y’know..gatherings would be great if we could just get rid of all the damn HIPPIES!!!(giggle giggle!)

Love,Hippie Mother Goddess,Jennybaby(ha ha ha ha)

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Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Wandering Bear wrote:

> I dont see how. The FS dosent want the Gatherings there in the first place,and trading circle dosnt change that.

If we’re talking about gathering on BLM land it changes a whole hell of a lot. Non-commercial events that charge no admission, that don’t sell things, that aren’t making motion pictures, that aren’t taking photos for profit, and that don’t involved off road vehicle use, are not required to have a permit to gather on BLM land.

Big difference if you ask me (which no one did but I butted in anyway).

Karin

((((((spring))))))) means alot!

Thanks Spring. Where do you hail from, here? I don’t really know why I’m still here. I live in Terre Haute, a place thats going down hill fast, economically, entertainment, & such. Steve Martin came through here once, he called it no-wheresville. The town hot shots raised so much cane about it he finally, publically retracted his statement. He was really telling the truth. ;)

I don’t have much blood family left. My daughter lives here in town too. Got me a little house thats paid for. Nothing out of Better Homes n’ Garden but it’s cozy to me. It’s a secluded little spot, sort of like a piece of country only in town, cept for the bar, and the trains. Got a small orchard out back, and room for a huge garden, with plenty of room for flowers. The survivalist in me wants to dig in and prepare to become self- sufficient.

Gotta admit, I’ve met the most beautiful folks on some of my travels. Attitudes seem totally different than from here. I fell totally in love with the oceans, the mountains, & desert areas. So many different, breath taking views & sunsets. Goofing around and playing with snakes, jellyfish, manta rays, scorpions, horney toads, all kinds of cool things we do not have here. The necks would just shoot em anyway. sigh!

I have been tempted and seriously thinking bout just throwing my daughter the keys and walking away. Then I go thinking bout my age, and that I have lost track of my friends out of state. Plus the assortment of other negatives, then ..........................I go bake some more bread :) or play on the pc.

Thats why I really want to try to make it to a gathering (s). To meet some like minded folks. Mebbe find some pasture that may be a little greener. Be around folks for, if even for a little bit that won’t think your nuts for saying a simple hi! or good morning, how ya doin? See some gals that are capable of a little smile, and friendliness without pretense, or gaming.

Ya really got me thinking on that one. I can count two good friends here. Lost the multitude of the others when the crazy/ironman left me. So now I’m not cool, and it can be rather seriously cold and lonely here, and I ain’t talkin the weather niether. Seen another huge bunch of em buried.

So, sheesh, I guess it just boils down to a little family, home n garden, vast library, a couple of guy friends, volunteer work, my birds, this dinosaur of a pc. mmmmmmm guess thats it! Jesus, I gotta quit or a tear will start running down my cheek n’ I’ll get on the ol pity pot :) hehe,.

Oh yeah, the change of seasons ;) So am I safe in saying that there really isn’t anything here in Indy to tempt a bow to come? <<>>>>>>>>>:-) lol-laughing

LoL-luving

luvin ya, spoor

just a couple of observations about the trade circle debate.....

1) we should all send many thanks to brother chink bob lee for putting his time in in oregon to focalize trade circle, keep it relatively clean (at least much cleaner than that health hazard in missouri!), and out of the way of the main trail. he also did his best to regulate green energy trading. as far as i know, he intends to do the same in az this year. wouldn’t be too bad if a kitchen volunteered to help out....and of course, sailor makes some good points: there needs to be a very big shitter very near trade circle. of course, the folks who use the area most oughtta dig it! (trade ya for a shovel, man.....got any kind bud?)

2) non-commercial group use is not compromised for the most part by a trade circle that uses the barter system. the law gets fuzzy when you move to a barter economy. barter trade has long been used by large corporations (trading goods for services, services for services, goods for goods, etc.) as a tax loophole. also, since the gathering itself does not profit from transactions at trade circle, only those individuals caught and convicted of commercial activity in the national forest are really in jeopardy. check me on this one.... it’s a little fuzzy.....but i don’t think that a true barter economy in trade circle jeopardizes our right to gather.

however, as most of us know, that just ain’t the case. 3 things about trade circle as it is threaten us:

1. the cash economy that’s developing. i don’t mean folks who trade something they made for a $10 gas donation done completely on the sly. last year, for example, someone was set up in trade circle blowing glass for sale right out in the open. that can’t happen. crafts for crafts, as it was meant to be, or it’s all gonna be gone.

2. we have subsituted “green” energy for greenbacks. i found this really cool leather vest at trade circle last year. also some harmonicas (those of you who know me know i put those to good use!). i had some excellent fair trades...music books, tapes, other groovy clothes, guitar strings, candy bars, tobacco, you name it. but i didn’t have what is sometimes the only item that will get you what you want: buds, shrooms, and doses. it’s a personal choice for me. i don’t do any drugs. jeez--i don’t even smoke cigs anymore! does that mean i can’t go to trading circle? i doubt i’ll waste my time in az.....

it’s a double-edged sword.....folks who don’t have or don’t want to have access to illegal substances can’t use trading circle. i pride myself on being so clean that i can really get into the feds’ collective face and speak out. i could probably go find whatever manner of crack the person’s looking for, but why should i? what if s/he turns out to be a fed just looking to entrap some hippies? a few well-placed feds could really do a number on trade circle and the rest of us....you see, buds, doses, and mushrooms are illegal! it’s just a matter of time before we start seeing “fed traders”....

[*disclaimer* this is in no way to be construed by law enforcement voyeurs that i have personally witnessed *any* illegal activity at *any* public first amendment event ever in the national forest system of the usda, we the people, inc.]

3. i thought i’d never say this, but sailor wasn’t even harsh enough in his criticism of the actions of traders in missouri. if you sat out in that trade circle day after day in mo--and you know who you are---you should be very ashamed of yourself. my guess is, probably 50-75% of all the disease spread at the mo gathering began at that nasty, disgusting, urine-smelling traders/vendors row. it was the hugest example of runaway moronic capitalism i’ve ever seen anywhere. it was like dead tour revisited in the gathering, only without the port-o-lets.

you wanna see the gatherings stop happening? let trade circle keep going in its current direction. the sanitation issue is probably the most important. the health dept. could--if they really wanted to---shut down the whole gathering based on that alone.

that’s all i have to say on that topic, ‘cause i have better things to do at a gathering than sitting around selling shit or trying to jones drugs and candy bars!

[*disclaimer* pronoid central, its officers and shareholders in no way approve or disapprove of the concept of trade circle. in fact, we beleive that in it’s highest form--fair trade--it could become a model for exchange in the post-capitalist world. unfortunately, as it exists now, you will rarely see pronoid central, its officers and shareholders hanging out at trade circle. if we want a dose of babylonian capitalism, we can always go to the mall or the local crack alley.]

which is not to impugn the character of traders who follow the guidelines: no money, no drugs, fair trade, clean up yer mess, don’t shit and piss in the spring! simple, ain’t it?

in loving smokefree service
the good folks at pronoid central
and arjay

=========================================
Put your money where your freedom is!

The Ocala Defense Fund
c/o The Florida Coalition for Peace & Justice
PO Box 90035
Gainesville, FL 32607

Make Check Payable to FCPJ *for* Ocala Defense Fund
=========================================

This message brought to you by the good folks at Pronoid Central.
Because we’re absolutely, positively *convinced* that you are out to help us.

In a message dated 98-03-20 14:03:31 EST, you write:

> okay, i think i finally got it. your belief is that no goods or services should be there unless freely given? is that it? no matter how honorable many people think bartering is or what a preferable alternative to putting prices on things/services and receiving money in return. so if i offer a massage in exchange for an apricot, this is offensive to you? because it’s commerce?

to me personally, it would be offensive if someone offered massages in exchange for some service or commodity-- in my thinking you would offer a massage because you saw someone chopping wood or cooking or doing some physical thing all day-- like i help bake bread because i know my family will be hungry at dinner time not because i want to trade it for some favor, trinket or greenback-- my whole concept of the gathering has always been, bring your best and give it away, un fortunately this concept, once the dominate idea, no longer seems to be in sway as more and more folks seem to come to get as much as they can-- a lot has changed since the days when we had one large kitchen and all sat and ate together, the proliferation of miltiple eating stations has destroyed a lot of our unity and opened up the oppertunity for folks to operate for profit resturants in the woods-- it’s not hard for even a one pot set-up to leave the gathering with 200-400 dollars, once a brother who did a larger kitchen showed me 700 dollars he collected in his kitchen can, the sad part was he actually thought he “earned” it-- i don’t know maybe my ideas are just old fashioned but i’ll continue to give all i can and hope enough others will also-----------------s

In a message dated 98-03-20 14:55:37 EST, you write:

> It just appers.The ones responsible for its exsistance are the traders themselves.
> WB

it doesn’t just appear, there are people responsible for creating the trading circle, as you indicate it is the traders themselves. if folks came to give freely of themselves there would be no trading circle because there would be no traders-- a point of information for those on agr new to gathrings, the lovin ovens has for the last few years been a trade free and radio free zone, do not get mad if you come there to trade and are asked to leave or are asked to please turn off your radio----------------------s

In a message dated 98-03-20 15:13:30 EST, you write:

> Even at the parking lot at the Dead concerts the venders had more sence then to crowed the main drag.

it was really bad in Mo., the venders set up on the main trail at a very narrow deep sandy spot, forceing everyone to pass thru their trip wether they wanted to or not. we eventually lost our supply runners for the ovens because no one wanted to carry 50# sacks of flour through this congested area-------------s

In a message dated 98-03-20 20:00:42 EST, you write:

> those individuals caught and convicted of commercial activity in the national forest are really in jeopardy. check me on this one.... it’s a little fuzzy.

the only concrete example i know of was the dumbs around the world movie held in the national forest just after wyoming originally planned as a commercial event on private land, it was moved to the forest when the county stepped in and shut it down folks who came to vend were desperate for cash and started selling and tradeing in the forest, the f.s. simply issued citations and confinscated their goods, redeemable upon payment of the citation which required a court appearance to determine the amount of the fine-- some real dummies selling pot brownies and buds were simply arrested and taken away-----------------s

Randall,Holly-SEA wrote:

There are, indeed, many of us old family believe that *everything* at the gathering should be freely given and shared. “Oh, wow, I sure wish I had an onion for my stew.” “Hey, bro, I got one. Here. By the way, you got any oil? I want to make popcorn later.” “Sure, man. Let’s use it up. Nature abhors a vaccuum. Think abundance.”

Or would you rather hear, “Hey, man you got an onion for my stew?” “Yeah, I might, what you got to trade for it?” “Well, I got some oil if you want to make popcorn later. I don’t know if I want to let go of it, though. It’s all I’ve got, and even though what I’m making for the next two days doesn’t need oil, I want to put some back just in case.”

Sounds like bland stew and no popcorn! And even though there’s nothing really wrong in the second exchange - it’s respectful and even may appear to be wise stewardship to some - the whole vibe is different. The first example is just sweeter to me.

Those of us who object to the current vibe around trading don’t want to force our way of thinking on anyone else. But I would love it if people gave more thought and took a good look at the spirit and intention of trading.

And it has nothing to do with the legal situation, folks. A close read of the regs will make it clear that an event is only considered commercial if it charges an entrance fee and has commerce as its main purpose, not if there is some commerce incidentally occurring. If everything in the trade circle sold for money, it would still not jeopardize the gathering, because that is not the primary purpose of the gathering (maybe it is for some individuals, but that does not generalize to the gathering as a whole).

I personally would love to see a gathering that looked like this:

Essentials (food, sacrament, tobacco, coffee, medical supplies, flaslight batteries) - all freely shared and/or given away.

Zoo-zoos (Snickers, chocolate, sugar, etc.) - all freely shared and/or given away.

In terms of trading other goods (jibber-jabber, crafts, textiles, jewelry), what I would prefer to see is trading done on a very light level, for fun and socializing - but NOT a hippie K-Mart that is essentially commercial.

By commercial, I mean anything that is essentially a business transaction - doesn’t necessarily have to be for $. If you trade the rest of the year, if you make your living on it, if you are doing the same thing at the gathering, it is commercial. On the other hand, if you have a few things you made yourself, and are looking for something specific you can’t make, it’s really fun to see if you can trade for it, and I don’t think this violates the spirit of “no commerce.”

Yes, I think barter *as commerce* is a righteous thing outside the gathering, and there are lots of folks in the family who do it. More power to them! But for one week a year, is it asking too much that people just come and be? Think about it. This is our church. Commerce - whether trade, barter, or sales - is simply not in keeping with our spiritual celebration. But because people don’t understand, and because we have no rules or cops or courts or judges, many folks will continue to barter on what is essentially a commercial basis at the gathering. I don’t like it, and I sure have no right or power to stop it; but I will continue to try to educate people in any way I can and hope that people get it.

Let it be free!
the La Twins

> > barter is barter-- an act of commerce regardless of the commodity-------------s
> so if i offer a massage in exchange for an apricot, this is offensive to you? because it’s commerce?
> hmmm. i’ll have to think on this.
> spring

Hi, spring

i could be way off but i think the concept is - -

it all started with barter - - trading goods/services for goods/services but it started to get complicated -- i e - --

i’ve got a tepee to barter/trade - - i want to trade for grains, beans, vegetables, fruit

the brother with grains doesn’t need a tepee - - the sister with fruits wants a tepee but i don’t want that much fruit

i believe it’s human nature to seek the path of least resistance

the mother of invention is not necessity but of lazyness all that is necessary is food and water - - if you live near the equator don’t need clothing or shelter -- - it might be nice in a rain storm but you don’t *need* it

money is an idea we adopted to barter with - - making it a lot easier to trade - - it’s a barter tool so to speak - -

i know someone that belongs to a barter club - - and they have barter paper - - i e - - this paper is equal to one hour of massage or one hour of electric work or one hour of nutritional consuling, etc. - - basically the same as money

with barter everything has value - - the person giving the massage may consider three dozen apricots as equal trade for a 1/2 hour massage

money is after all just paper can’t eat it or drink it - - it’s trading paper (well you could eat it but i doubt it very nutritious)

even the i r s considers bartering as taxable

don’t misunderstand i enjoy trading goods/services for goods/services i think it’s fun - - but doing it all the time may become a hassle

i like the concept of self reliance - -gather/ grow my own food, make my own shelter, and one day i want to grow some cotton- -make some thread - -make some cloth - - make a pants/shorts and shirt - - when someone ask where i got it i can say i grew it and made it

i think the gathering is like communal living all of us sharing - - getting away from doing business to survive

another view tossed in the circle

peace
Dan

“Resisting temptation is easier when you think
you’ll probably get another chance later on.”

???

Oh boy, now these are some dangerous thoughts!

In article <351290...@earthlink.net>, Karin Zirk <kz...@earthlink.net> writes:

> I think the biggest problem with the gatherings as a whole is that the base of knowledge is not built upon. I think the most important thing that any of us can do is share our ideas, experiences, and tell the stories of what and how and why.

I’m all for sharing and teaching. I like being on both ends of that. The building on I’m not so sure of. I can see a couple of different sides to that.

One would be our tendancy to insist something should be done because we do something else a certain way. Why do we do it that way? Because it’s tradition. Like a “Howdy Folks” is only a real invitaion to gather if it actually has the words “Howdy Folks” on it.

Another would be that the ways of Rainbow could become so arcane that the newbe’s *couldn’t* access the meaning of what is going on without taking a class on it.

Yet another is that building on things is fun. I love taking a commen idea with other people and moving it to more and deeper levels of meaning.

> I personally rebel against this standard Rainbow philosophy that if you just come to a gathering, you’ll get it? All of us don’t work that way. Some do and some need more explanation.

So true. But most of what we do only takes a few words to explaine.

> If this family is going to evolve, we need to discuss what was done and why and analyze the info and make educated and informed decisions. And if rehashing the A-Camp scene or Trade Circle will help ten people understand these situations and all their complexities then it’s worth it’s weight in gold.

Oooh, shudder. There’s that “evolve” word again. Does this mean I have to give up apples or cover myself in chocolatte? What are we supposed to become?

Don’t take me too serously Karen. I know what you mean. In the dim recesses of my memory, it seems there were people at the Pensilvania National that would deliver spontanious mini-lectures at main medow, in kitchens, along tails etc about all the things we did and needed to do and why. For instance, shitters, supply, why busses should drive the road in slowly... I thought that was way cool.

Montana Crystal

Http://members.aol.com/BoomBdBoom/drums.html for musical instruments
Karma gots a wicked sense of humor - Brad

In article <3512D3A0.3CA8BFE7.alt.gathering.rainbow@azstarnet.com>, ll...@azstarnet.com (bobbin bob) writes:

> oooooh, don’t think too hard- i plan on bringing lottsa apricots- and sum thoughts bout a massage from you, too!

Why “bob”! I thought you were shacked up. You’re almost as bad as I am. ;^}

Montana Crystal

In article <3512B253.alt.gathering.rainbow@mssmtp.perkinscoie.com>,

> so if i offer a massage in exchange for an apricot, this is offensive to you? because it’s >commerce?

Without getting into an economic theoretical wank-fest, it’s my understanding that commodities are readily available goods that have a universally agreed on price. Barter is different in that goods have different “value” according to circumstance.

For example:

Commodity Trading: Apricots went up $4 per bushel because of El Nino.
Barter Trading: What a hot day, I’d trade my car for an apricot!

Of course Rainbow barter is also different from “classical” barter in that we’re not supposed to be trying to screw each other over.

Love,
- Ari

---------------------------------------------------
In Girum Imus Nocte Et Consumimur Igni

Carla Newbre (c_ne...@efn.org) wrote:

> There are, indeed, many of us old family believe that *everything* at the gathering should be freely given and shared. “Oh, wow, I sure wish I had an onion for my stew.” “Hey, bro, I got one. Here. By the way, you got any oil? I want to make popcorn later.” “Sure, man. Let’s use it up. Nature abhors a vaccuum. Think abundance.”

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Carla)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Right On!!! You have hit the proverbial nail on the head:) I’ve read posts from folks saying that doing business at the gathering is the only way they can swing it. We have 51 weeks(way to long) between gatherings, if coming home is important take this week off and relish the time with your family....

Peace

> the only concrete example i know of was the dumbs around the world movie held in the national forest just after wyoming originally planned as a commercial event on private land, it was moved to the forest when the county stepped in and shut it down folks who came to vend were desperate for cash and started selling and tradeing in the forest, the f.s. simply issued citations and confinscated their goods

Its really begining to sond to me from how people have been describing the National gathering that its not really worth going to.

That theres less freedom there then there is in babalyon.

And that every ones to afraid or pasifistic to stand up to the LEO’s or to the irresponsible to retain their freedom.

If 20.000 people put their foot down in the middle of the forest the nation would hear it.

On Fri, 20 Mar 1998 23:30:45 -0800 (PST) Carla Newbre <c_ne...@efn.org> writes:

The shareing everything Idea is a beautul dream and one worth presuing,I share it,but its still just a dream at this point.And until the Rainbow becomes more that 2 weeks a year in the woods it will remain a dream.

Supplies in babalyon arnt free so we still have to earn a living some how.

Ive heard that you can do pretty good at Rainbow traiding circles.

Trading Circle (question)

> Barter is different in that goods have different “value” according to >circumstance.
> - Ari

it seems to me everything is negotiable in any kind of business

i e - - i got a pair of levi jeans at a garage sale for 25 cents

this one brother sold his business aand maybe got 15 cents on the dollar

someone going out of business sells new stuff for a lot lower price - - this one natural food store was closing and selling everthing 30% off

hell just about everything in life is negotiable to a certain point - - like mother nature- - it’s sometimes tricky negotiating to stop or start a rain storm

the value thing is sort of like - - whats one wo/mans treasure is another wo/mans trash - - it’s all in the eyes of the beholder

that’s when i like to barter to get rid of stuff i don’t want anymore

remember the scene when wind in his hair told dances with wolves good trade - - -( a hat for a knife) - - i think it was his first english words

oh well no big deal - - but i do have this really delicious apricot i like to trade for that car of yours anytime you want just let me know : )

> Of course Rainbow barter is also different from “classical” barter in that >we’re not supposed to be trying to screw each other over.

HO !!!!!

peace
Dan

In the land of the dark, the Ship of the Sun is driven by the Grateful Dead.
--Egyptian Book of the Dead

the gathering is like a dream world - - if only for one day

peace
Dan

“Tradition is grand when it is a foundation for growth, it stops becoming a foundation when tradition itself fails to grow and change. Nothing in nature stays the same, who are we kidding? Evolution is as natural a process as rain, but we forget this in our determination to annihilate ourselves. Education is the key to that growth and development, that evolution of tradition, that adaptation to an ever changing world with new visions.”

???

In a message dated 98-03-21 02:34:41 EST, you write:

> Carla, thanks for saying what i have been trying to convey about the tradeing circle movie, if you would write more often, i could write less

however you state

> If everything in the trade circle sold for money, it would still not jeopardize the gathering,

this may or may not be the case, i don’t know, but i do know from watching it come down in az. that the individual is subject to citation if they do not have a venders permit from the f.s. so i think it’s fair to say-- seller beware! -----------------s

From: wanderi...@juno.com

> The shareing everything Idea is a beautul dream and one worth presuing,I share it,but its still just a dream at this point.And until the Rainbow becomes more that 2 weeks a year in the woods it will remain a dream.
> Supplies in babalyon arnt free so we still have to earn a living some how.
> Ive heard that you can do pretty good at Rainbow traiding circles.
> WB

Exactly... the Gathering lasts what?...2 wks to a month? ( Average visit of the Babylonian Hippie,not the Hardcore 24/7/365 Hippie) this gives one 48 to 50 weeks to do the money gathering or other planning it takes to travel to and from a gathering.

Love,James

Howlin’,growlin’,prowlin’ http://www.cataholic.com/james
all you need is a strong heart and nerves of steel.....

From: X9...@aol.com (X989)

> the lovin ovens has for the last few years been a trade free and radio free zone, do not get mad if you come there to trade and are asked to leave or are asked to please turn off your radio----------------------s

Cripes....people are bringin’ boomboxs to gatherings?

that sucks......I’ve only been to the one Gathering in ‘75 but I do know there were no boxes or radios I heard.......

Man,Gatherings are starting to sound a lot less wonderful then I remember.

Love,James...

Howlin’,growlin’,prowlin’ http://www.cataholic.com/james
all you need is a strong heart and nerves of steel.....

> this may or may not be the case, i don’t know, but i do know fromwatching itcome down in az. that the individual is subject to citation if they donot have a venders permit from the f.s. so i think it’s fair to say-- seller beware! -----------------s

Sellers Beware is a good motto at all times.

I agree that traders circle is not enough of a threat for the government to bring in the military to boot out the Gathering.

It would take a stock pile of wepons for the Government to take that action.

> You guys better watch out. I remember a few years back when Gandhi got really drunk at A-camp, he ended up punching out a F.S. guy and one of his ol' ladies had to sell her walkman at tradeing circle to make bail. Then, as if to make matters worse, while he was still drunk, the LEOs had him sign a permit application for the gathering. When will he learn, that zany Hindu.

Heheheheheheheheheh!

In article >19980321.033102.7359.6.wandering_bear.alt.gathering.rainbow@juno.com>, wanderi...@juno.com (Wandering Bear) writes:

> Its really begining to sond to me from how people have been describing the National gathering that its not really worth going to.
> That theres less freedom there then there is in babalyon.

Wow. Everything you say reminds me that you’ve never been to one.

On the other hand, if you have no interest in living in an alternative way, or in alternative spirituality, then Rainbow may not be your cup of tea. Not everyone who goes finds the kind of respite the rest of us do.

Montana Crystal

Http://members.aol.com/BoomBdBoom/drums.html for musical instruments
Karma gots a wicked sense of humor - Brad

In a message dated 98-03-21 20:03:40 EST, you write:

> Cripes....people are bringin’ boomboxs to gatherings?
that sucks......I’ve only been to the one Gathering in ‘75 but I do know there were no boxes or radios I heard.......

no james, not boom boxes, hand held cb’s for communication around the site-- we think the waves are bad for the yeast, so we ask folks who walk around with radios to please turn them off or move a little farther away from the bread--------------s

Sailor said:

> over the years I’ve watched it turn into a rude strip mall along the main trail with very aggressive folks trading such hand crafts as pot, tobacco, canned food, flashlight batteries and other assorted crap.

What we have in Trading Circle is your plain everyday black market, where people go to get the things that are hard to get thru established and accepted channels. In the city it’s heroin and cocaine, in the high school locker room it’s cigarettes, at a Gathering it’s sugar, meat, tobacco, and batteries, in A-Camp it’s booze. This is going to happen any time you try to ban something and hinder its distribution. If it ain’t in Trading circle, it’s gonna be somewhere else.

I thought the location of T.C. at Oregon was a very good compromise. It was on Main Trail, where there is the traffic that the traders want, but it was also off of M.T. on the siding, so traffic wasn’t obstructed.

- Butterfly Bill

__________________________________________________
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com

> Hi, spring

Hi, Dan!

> i think the gathering is like communal living all of us sharing - - getting away from doing business to survive

Wow, Dan, thanks! This really helps. I had never really thought about bartering in this way. And I agree wholeheartedly - the gathering is a getting away from “business as usual” - or business to survive. and is about being there for each other, totally freely giving of ourselves.

Funny, I had always held bartering above commerce with money and so, therefore, thought it fine to be at a gathering, but this sheds a light on bartering causing me to view it in a different perspective now. And yeah, I see less and less good about it being at our gatherings.

Thanks!

love,
spring

Wandering Bear wrote:

> It would take a stock pile of wepons for the Government to take that action.

Do you just sit there and think up statements who’s sole raison d’etre is to envoke a roll of the eyes? News for ya pal, your government already has a “stock pile” just waiting to be turned on.

Love Life, Be Happy
Brad

On Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 05:11:33PM -0800, Wandering Bear wrote:

> Even the strongest Government can not withstand the focused “Will of the People” Public opinion is still the main worry off the U.S. government. If they did such a thing they wouldnt be the government for much longer.

True, in a sense. And, (abhorrent tho the idea is to many ppl), this is also the reason the Constitution assures us the right to keep and bear arms. BUT... check out “mainstream society”. Ever check out the full depth and breadth of what I term the “fat dumb and happy syndrome”? I realize that this sounds like an unfair blanket statement; think nevertheless that ya’d be astonished at what the government could pull off with nobody batting an eyelash (except certain groups, which would then be downplayed by the media). It’s going on right now.

. .
|< /-\ (-) /-\

> I had always held bartering above commerce with money

I did too....Dan, I thank you for your perspective....has helped change mine....

love,James

Howlin’,growlin’,prowlin’ http://www.cataholic.com/james
all you need is a strong heart and nerves of steel.....

> to me personally, it would be offensive if someone offered massages in exchange for some service or commodity-- in my thinking you wouldoffer a massage because you saw someone chopping wood or cooking or doing some physical thing all day-- like i help bake bread because i know myfamily will be hungry at dinner time not because i want to trade it for some favor, trinket or greenback

Thanks, sailor. This really helped clarify this issue for me. I agree with what you’ve said wholeheartedly. Yes, the massage *would* be for someone who had just chopped wood, put up a tipi or what have you. I think I used a poor example for what I was asking, as it has never been my nature to think in terms of trading a much needed service which I can easily provide for something else. I would do all the above in the spirit as described by you, given from my heart. Nevertheless, this discussion and your words have been helpful in illuminating what’s at the heart of this matter, trading/bartering at the Gathering - and that is love, unity, giving unconditionally.

I don’t think there’s anything old-fashioned about your ideas at all - i think they’re timeless. And I’ll be happy to give all I can as well.

Love you all-
spring

> > I had always held bartering above commerce with money
> I did too....Dan, I thank you for your perspective....has helped change mine....
> love,James

I have to add my $.02 here, too! Dan, LA Twins, Sailor, Ari - thanks to all of you who have helped shed some light on this whole topic and like James said, you have helped change my perspective.

love,
spring

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