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Goddessmyass - part 4


From: Carla Newbre
Subject: Love, Gender, and Rejection (Don’t like male-bashing? Don’t read)
Date: September 25, 1997

Okay, I’ve had it with you guys whining about how rejected and horny you are. Here are some of my personal observations. I hear all the time from guys how a woman can get laid any time she wants to and a man can’t. Yeah, right. If the woman is under thirty, slim, and attractive, no problem. But if she’s older, if she is fat, if she has acne, if she is ugly, you guys just ignore her. How do I know this is true? Because I am one of the women who has battled a weight problem all my life. I was thin for about eight years, and the men fell all over me. But when I gained sixty pounds, whoo boy, you’d think I was wearing a sign saying “I have the clap.”

Check it out, guys. Do you try to get next to the sisters who measure up to the standard American image of beauty? Do you forty- and fifty-year- olds just want the twenty-something women? If the young ones are who you are trying for, you deserve all the rejection you get.

Check out the personal ads sometime. Men’s ads almost always include “slim, attractive, height and weight proportionate.” And the fifty-somethings ususally want someone under thirty-five. What’s wrong with this picture?

You know what, I am the same person fat or thin. You know what, a lot of those women you don’t even see because they have bad skin or small tits or big noses would treat you like kings if you tried to get to know them, but you won’t consider a relationship with them because you don’t find them sexually attractive.

Which brings me to my next rant. Be honest, now - which is it you really want: a relationship for companionship, warmth, conversation, and so forth, or a sex kitten who will do your bidding, satisfy your sexual needs, and stroke your ego? How many relationships have you seen where the guy dumps his old lady when her breasts start to sag and her face gets wrinkled - and the woman he replaces her with is young and firm and gorgeous? Rainbow is no different than the rest of America. You supposedly liberated brothers want tight asses just like the rest of your white Western brothers. (Why do I bring race into it? Well, because in the Native American, Mexican American and African American cultures, a woman is valued for who she is, not for what she looks like).

And you guys wonder why we are so angry with you? No, not because of extreme issues such as physical and sexual abuse - although these are real, and most of us have good reason around these items to have very little trust either in our own judgement or in your good behavior. Lots of times in my life (I’m 51), I have started a relationship with a guy who looks really good at first, I fall in love, and then the control stuff starts. No, I have never been hit by a guy, nor raped. I am one of the lucky 25%. But I have been in my share of emotionally abusive relationships - not because the guy started off that way or because I was looking for it, but because he presented himself as being open, honest, reasonable, and sweet. It takes a few months before the Jekyll and Hyde stuff starts, and there’s always the hope that the Mr. Hyde manifestation is a one-time event, or he had a bad day, or whatever. It takes awhile for the realization to set in that this is the way the guy really is. Aside from emotional, verbal, and psychological games, the control issues are unbelievable. There is always the unspoken message “It’s my way, or the highway.”

So none of my relationships last long, and I have simply learned that I am happier alone. I’ve been abstinent for five years. Until I run into a guy who really knows how to communicate, who respects me and loves me for who I am, I intend to stay that way. I learned this lesson late in life, and I am glad that my younger sisters are learning that there are a lot worse things than being alone.

I’m beginning to believe that people should NOT sleep with each other until they have known each other for a long, long time, and have fallen in love and been with each other long enough to really get to know each other without the false distraction of passion. I guess that would mean you guys would just have to go on being horny. Oh, well. If sex became the reward for people treating each other well, maybe things would change.

Well, Roger, you wanted controversy, you got it. And yes, I do love my brothers, but you guys are just so fucking clueless, I can’t believe it. Am I angry? You bet. And I’ll probably keep on being angry until you guys prove me wrong. You can start by putting pressure on each other to stop hitting, stop verbally abusing, stop controlling women. Put pressure on each other about how disgusting, undignified, and pathetic it is for a middle-aged guy to be chasing after young women. For gods sake, help each other grow up!

Love, Light, and Indignation,
Carla

From: Road Dog Review
Subject: Love, Gender, and Rejection (Don’t like male-bashing? Don’t read)
Date: September 25, 1997

At 02:29 PM 9/25/97 -0700, you wrote:

> Okay, I’ve had it with you guys whining about how rejected and horny you are. Here are some of my personal observations.
> I hear all the time from guys how a woman can get laid any time she wants to and a man can’t. Yeah, right. If the woman is under thirty, slim, and attractive, no problem. But if she’s older, if she is fat, if she has acne, if she is ugly, you guys just ignore her.

Uhhhhh?! Actually Carla I remember giving you approriate and politically correct attention at the gate more than once and being studiously ignored...I think you looked at me in the eyes once and that was it....of couse ...I am a fat old man ....and that turned you off.

.....Isn’t that what we’re talking about here?

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

ONE WORLD ONE FAMILY
http://www.roaddogreview.com
www.fairenet.com
www.tonasket.net
www.earthtrader.net


From: Carla Newbre
Subject: Love, Gender, and Rejection (Don’t like male-bashing? Don’t read)
Date: September 25, 1997

On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Road Dog Review wrote:

> Uhhhhh?! Actually Carla I remember giving you approriate and politically correct attention at the gate more than once and being studiously ignored...I think you looked at me in the eyes once and that was it....of couse ...I am a fat old man ....and that turned you off.
> .....Isn’t that what we’re talking about here?

Not to burst your bubble, Ed-I, and I don’t mean any disrespect, but your post illustrates one of the problems I am speaking about. Nothing turned me off. I am just not looking for a guy at all. My apparent lack of interest had nothing to do with you personally. In fact, I was glad we met because of our mutual participation in the newsgroup, and because we have mutual friends.

If I did not respond to your “appropriate and politically correct attention,” it wasn’t because I was studiously ignoring you but because I really wasn’t aware of it, being very focussed on the Welcome Home gate and related movies with the Forest Service and the family. It had nothing to do with you or your physical appearance. It had to do with the fact that I was pretty involved from Thanksgiving Council onward in the prep and liason work that local family do when the Gathering is in their backyard. I was one of the people who got a ticket for gathering without a permit. I had plenty enough on my plate without putting myself in a position of either starting a relationship or having a casual sexual/romantic encounter. Believe me, I was not complaining about this gathering or any other specific time or event in talking about men being interested in only young, attractive women; it’s just a phenomenon I’ve seen over time.

Of course, this brings up another interesting point. I probably wouldn’t recognize it if a guy was interested in me because I am so used to being a loner, or having men just be good friends. The rules for expressing interest for the opposite sex have changed so often in my lifetime, I don’t know what they are any more. I don’t date and wouldn’t have the slightest idea how to get back into that game - and I’m not sure I would want to. Seems to me, if I ever do get into a relationship, it would probably be one that grew over time from shared interests and deep friendship. As far as the age factor is concerned, I can’t in my wildest dreams imagine myself to be interested in anyone younger than about 50 years old, give or take a couple of years. It’s not a man’s body, youth, strength, power, money, or looks that attract me, it’s his mind, his sense of humor, and a certain “je ne sais quoi” expressed in the crows feet around the eyes.

Love,
Carla

From: Road Dog Review
Subject: Love, Gender, and Rejection (Don’t like male-bashing? Don’t read)
Date: September 25, 1997

> Not to burst your bubble, Ed-I, and I don’t mean any disrespect, but your post illustrates one of the problems I am speaking about. Nothing turned me off. I am just not looking for a guy at all. My apparent lack of interest had nothing to do with you personally. In fact, I was glad we met because of our mutual participation in the newsgroup, and because we have mutual friends.

Gee I’m speechless.
.....I guess I better
go back to “man school”

......never mind Carla.

ONE WORLD ONE FAMILY
http://www.roaddogreview.com
www.fairenet.com
www.tonasket.net
www.earthtrader.net

From: Randall,Holly-SEA
Subject: Love, Gender, and Rejection (Don’t like male-bashing? Don’t read)
Date: September 25, 1997

WOW! ! ! ! ! Way to say it, sister! For any bro this fits - and be HONEST

now - because Carla’s right - there sure as hell are brothers exactly like she described - oh yeah and you know who you are - don’t you? So, for any brother this fits - own up to it, listen, think about what Carla’s said, and please, please, please help each other grow. She’s right on about the Native American culture - at least the Lakota men - they know how to see the woman inside and love her. The rest could take a lesson. Except. *for sure* one, two particular incredibly beautiful brother(s) right here in Seattle. And whoops, a couple others.

Thanks Carla -

Love, peace and enlightenment!

Holly

From: AwiNoquisi
Subject: Love, Gender, and Rejection (Don’t like male-bashing? Don’t read)
Date: September 26, 1997

Sister...

Way to go on venting your feelings! I agree, I think alot of men do put way too much emphasis on looks. I’ll tell you why. Last spring, I tore one of my contact lenses. When I did, I had to wear my coke-bottle bottom glasses (yep, I’m almost legally blind). The week before, I had gone to a bar that my friends and I frequent for the nonchalant atmosphere and good music. I had been flirting with a guy there, with some success... Then, when I showed up wearing my glasses, and sheesh, he must’ve thought I had the plague! Carla, you wrote:

> You know what, I am the same person fat or thin.

You’re damn skippy you are. You know, I am a slim, pretty young’un, but I actually feel offended when guys online ask me what I look like. I always ask myself, “does it really matter what I look like?” It shouldn’t, in my opinion. Then again, maybe I am sensitive cause I look like a nerdy librarian at night, with my coke-bottle bottoms on. Hahaha! Why are most men so visual-oriented? Why are so many men so caught up in looks? Why are so many women, for that matter? Why do so many women put paint on their faces? Are they going into battle? Heehee, I’m trying to laugh here...

> You supposedly liberated brothers want tight asses just like the rest of your white Western brothers. (Why do I bring race into it? Well, because in the Native American, Mexican American and African American cultures, a woman is valued for who she is, not for what she looks like).

Well, that is not entirely true. I have known Afro-American and Spanish-descendant and NA brothers who behave in the same manner toward women as do other races. While it is true that, traditionally, a woman should be valued for her inner person in most of these cultures, many have become “wannabe whites,” and behave just as sickeningly as white men.

> and then the control stuff starts.

Amen, that has been my experience with many men, too. I have, on the other hand, been beaten by a guy once. It only took once for me to leave though. HAHAHA!

> But I have been in my share of emotionally abusive relationships - not because the guy started off that way or because I was looking for it, but because he presented himself as being open, honest, reasonable, and sweet. It takes a few months before the Jekyll and Hyde stuff starts, and there’s always the hope that the Mr. Hyde manifestation is a one-time event, or he had a bad day, or whatever.

Yep, that has been my experience with almost all men I have dated. ICK!

> I am happier alone. I’ve been abstinent for five years. Until I run into a guy who really knows how to communicate, who respects me and loves me for who I am, I intend to stay that way. I learned this lesson late in life, and I am glad that my younger sisters are learning that there are a lot worse things than being alone.

I hear ya! I, myself, decided a while back to quit looking for a man and just be alone til the right one comes along! And I agree about waiting to have sex with a person, until one thinks that it is right. I have made many a mistake by just jumping into the proverbial sack with men, only to find out that he is an etch-a-sketcher from hell! Well, I would love to write more, but I havvvve to run for now. I have tons of work (yep, that awful four-letter word LOL) to do.... Keep your chin up, sis!

Love to Ya and all my Bros and Sisses,
Julia


From: Carla Newbre
Subject: My evil, male-bashing twin
Date: September 26, 1997

Oh, gosh, my evil twin, Snarla, snuck in and used my computer account when I was not paying attention. She loves to play devil’s advocate. I hope my brothers and sisters know that I would never engage in male bashing of the sort she did, and apologize for my lack of vigilance. Actually, I had been planning on addressing some of Mark’s and BB’s complaints in a more civil fashion, but before I got around to it, Snarla just leaped into the breach and took over. Well, better late than never. And if there are any seeming inconsistencies in either the content or the tone of the various posts on the subject coming from my e-mail account, just remember that Snarla is the one who is rude, not me. I hope the following comments are a little gentler and more understanding than hers.

Yes, guys, I know it is confusing and frustrating to see your sisters go for creeps, when you have gentleness and respect to offer a woman. I know it is hurtful to be rejected for no apparent reason.

I want you to know that women are in the dark about these issues, too. I think the recent battles between the sexes have done a lot of harm. In our quest for liberation, perhaps we women have thrown the baby out with the bath water. You know, when I was growing up, gender roles were very clear. Men were supposed to be the providers, the protectors, the pursuers. It was expected that they make the first move, and it was up to the woman to accept or reject a full spectrum of advances. It was considered to be unfeminine by both sexes for the woman to be the aggressor, either socially or sexually. Men held a woman’s chair, opened doors for her, took her arm when crossing the street. Women waited for the man to light her cigarette or to make the first phone call. Problem was, women were almost completely dependent on men, in many ways. Along came the women’s liberation movement, which trumpetted demands for career opportunities, equal pay, and even-handed treatment. Some women were offended by men who opened doors for them. Some women still expected it. Nobody knew what the rules were. Women were encouraged and expected to make the first move, but a lot of men were turned off by it. Lots of double messages were given and received by both sexes.

Then came the sexual revolution. You liked someone, you smiled at them, you told them you were attracted to them, and into bed you both popped. There were no rules. These were easy times.

Then came AIDS. End of sexual revolution. Back to traditional values. Women who slept around were sluts; men who slept around were studs. Mixed messages again. Nobody knows how we’re supposed to act. So we’ve settled into the post-feminist period and we’re all trying to figure it out. Images are hard to get beyond. Our mainstream culture still encourages women to be beautiful, still encourages men to attain wealth and power. Sex is used to sell popcorn, cigarettes, and candy. Women are still supposed to be soft, sexy, beautiful, nurturing, and yielding; but now we’re also supposed to pursue our own careers and be aggressive, strong, and intelligent. Men are still supposed to be manly, strong, and self-assured, but they are also supposed to be nurturing, sensitive, and intuitive.

Let’s face it folks, we just don’t know what we want. None of us. We’re all confused. What are the rules? Does he want to approach me, or does he want me to approach him? She’s wonderful now, but will she turn into a demanding bitch later? When people first get together, they are on their best behavior. It’s a very artificial reality. And what originally attracted them to each other are probably very superficial things: his smile, her voice, what he does for a living, what books she has read. How do we get to what is below the surface? Yes, many of us women are offended by guys just coming onto us out of the blue. It has nothing to do with the approach, it has more to do with the fact that really, unless there has been conversation and a discovery of shared interests, or seeing the person at work or play doing whatever they do and noticing qualities we like, the attraction is always bound to be superficial. It’s like, who does this guy think I am - his soulmate? That’s nice, he only met me twenty minutes ago. Go away, dude, don’t bother me.

I’m sure there’s got to be a male counterpart to this.

Anyway, my point is, can we stop blaming each other? We’re all just casting about in the darkness, trying to establish a new paradigm that nurtures and supports us all. Guys, us women are just as confused and frustrated as you. No one ever really taught us how to sort out the good guys from the jerks (remember, we are a culture built on image rather than substance). Unless we are totally cynical (and who is attracted to a person who distrusts everything?), we have to pretty much take things at face value, just as you do. And abusive guys just don’t start out slapping a woman around the first few months of the relationship.. So I think the key is getting to know each other as people. And that is just such a revolutionary concept, I don’t think we know how to do it. We’ve always (since the cave, no doubt) related to each other out of our respective roles. It’s almost impossible for a woman to just have a conversation with a guy the way she would with another woman. Our culture teaches us different speech patterns and rhythms, different subject matter etc. Men interrupt more, talk louder. These phenomenon are well-documented. Women tend to talk more about feelings, men tend to talk more about doing. I’m not saying one is better than the other; just that we are very different.

I’ve started to ramble a bit, getting unfocussed with the lateness of the hour. I feel Snarla waiting in the wings waiting to creep in and take over. Mustn’t have that. Just a reminder that even Freud, the father of psychiatry, lamented, “What do women want?” It can also be said that women everywhere have a similar question: “What is it that you guys want from us?”

Evil twin or no, the subject is fascinating. Let’s keep on talking about gender role difficulties. Maybe we’ll all learn something about each other. As you can tell, Snarla is cynical and pissed off. But Carla can usually see more than one side to the question and is more compassionate and empathetic. Let’s hope both approaches can bring some light to the subject.

Love and Light (yeah, right, all that Hippie-dippie sentiment),

Uh-oh, Snarla is trying to force her way back in, I’d better turn off the computer.

Carla

From: AwiNoquisi
Subject: My evil, male-bashing twin
Date: September 26, 1997

Quick PS, Sister Carla,

I kind of liked Snarla, because she was really honest; even though she did make me gasp and cringe a little, I had to agree with some of what she was saying. Hahaha! Well, you and your twin have some good things to say... And I recommend that all brothers, even the good ‘uns, listen up! There is much to be learned from your angry, and your kinder, sides. Am I making sense? Typing like a madwoman here, trying to hurry.

Lovin You And All,
Julia

From: Randall,Holly-SEA
Subject: My evil, male-bashing twin
Date: September 26, 1997

<snip>

> Yes, guys, I know it is confusing and frustrating to see your sisters go for creeps, when you have gentleness and respect to offer a woman. I know it is hurtful to be rejected for no apparent reason. I want you to know that women are in the dark about these issues, too. I think the recent battles between the sexes have done a lot of harm. In our quest for liberation, perhaps we women have thrown the baby out with the bath water.

<snip>

> Let’s face it folks, we just don’t know what we want. None of us. We’re all confused. What are the rules? Does he want to approach me, or does he want me to approach him? She’s wonderful now, but will she turn into a demanding bitch later? How do we get to what is below the surface?

<snip>

> Anyway, my point is, can we stop blaming each other? We’re all just casting about in the darkness, trying to establish a new paradigm that nurtures and supports us all. Guys, us women are just as confused and frustrated as you. No one ever really taught us how to sort out the good guys from the jerks (remember, we are a culture built on image rather than substance). Unless we are totally cynical (and who is attracted to a person who distrusts everything?), we have to pretty much take things at face value, just as you do. And abusive guys just don’t start out slapping a woman around the first few months of the relationship.. So I think the key is getting to know each other as people. And that is just such a revolutionary concept, I don’t think we know how to do it. We’ve always (since the cave, no doubt) related to each other out of our respective roles.

<snip>

> Just a reminder that even Freud, the father of psychiatry, lamented, “What do women want?” It can also be said that women everywhere have a similar question: “What is it that you guys want from us?” Evil twin or no, the subject is fascinating. Let’s keep on talking about gender role difficulties. Maybe we’ll all learn something about each other. As you can tell, Snarla is cynical and pissed off. But Carla can usually see more than one side to the question and is more compassionate and empathetic. Let’s hope both approaches can bring some light to the subject.
> Love and Light (yeah, right, all that Hippie-dippie sentiment),

I love hippie-dippie sentiment, myself

> Carla

Well, Carla, guys, everyone -

I think, possibly, IMHO this is the best post yet on this subject. As I’ve been able to empathize with Mark, Butterfly Bill, Snarla(?!), and now completely understand everything Carla is saying here and I would guess others have, too - well, seems then that what this all comes down to is that we, as men and women, are indeed confused and need nothing more than honest, open dialogue in the most non-threatening of environments.

Absolutely, we must get to know each other as people not as genders or in the role of Man, role of Woman. Keep asking questions, keep listening, but at all times be willing to learn. remain open. It’s all we’ve got! We *know* we love each other - when we aren’t thinking in terms of gender, or looking at each other as the “other” sex - we then find ourselves sharing endearing moments when we are truly looking at the other person as a “family member” - potential friend, kindred spirit, what have you. Hopefully, then, as we grow, the times when we look at each other as just another flawed but blessedly fascinating, complex, and beautiful soul will come more and more often. Until we see each other with no pre-conceived notions of who the other is. Just with love.

I can hope anyway!

Love y’all - and you, Snarla - quit baiting that darker side of me!
Holly

From: x9...@aol.com
Subject: My evil, male-bashing twin
Date: September 26, 1997

well carla and snarla, i’ve been thinking about your post for the past couple of days and watching the response generated--i must agree with you about the “rules” or standards or social conventions being very mixed at this time, so inter relating is tough to figure out from a what’s expected stand point--however i don’t think some things change no matter what the world around us views as value standards:--honesty, is still honesty, being a gentleman is still not a bad way to develope a sense of self worth in enableing one to approach a lady with respect--sex is still sex and occours when hormones become excited mutually (it’s just much more important to wear a condom these days)--the how and when sex comes into a relationship is still a matter decided between the individuals involved--

love? well maybe two or three times in my life i actually have been involved with an individual who i would gladly have laid down my life for, given my all, because they brought to me a quickening pulse by their mere presence, filled my heart with gladness, made the world seem a better place, and made me eager for each new day, to be able to share all the excitement of being alive, is that love? who knows--anyway the point is that their age and looks had nothing to do with all these feelings--so i guess i must disagree with you about wether a person should seek someone of a certain age or body type--oh i understand that there are some problems when the difference is great, but i think one should follow their heart, tempered by their head and not outright reject a relationship due to age or beauty------------------s


From: Butterfly Bill
Subject: Love, etc.
Date: September 27, 1997
Newsgroups: alt.gathering.rainbow

Kawa-BUNGA!!!!

It's Friday evening, and there are 30 NEW POSTS on this subject since Tuesday evening, when I was here last. This was a little slow on the uptake, but aren't we getting a little Hamburg [incendiary bomb raid] here? Roger, you think you're the Master Baiter? Hey - step back and watch a PRO! (Actually, I wasn't trying to start a flame war deliberately with faked bs. - everything I've posted has been my sincere feelings, some of them 30 years old.)

It's Saturday morning, and I had to download and print all that and go home to digest it last night before coming back. This will be a composite answer to several people at once.

When I said to Roger that none of the sisters had the balls to respond to this post, I figured Roger would know - in his capacity as Laughing Bull - that what I was really saying that I want them all to come running out saying, "Oh, yeah?". And I thought about it afterward, and, yes Legeia, it was confrontational, and maybe that's why I didn't get answered as fast as I did with the Long Post.

But I don't see how we're really going to discuss this honestly if we don't get confrontational. Dammit, I'm pissed, and I've been hearing since the sixties about how women are, too. Being polite is just going to be trying to pretend we don't have certain feelings.

If we're going to find new rules to end the chaos that Legeia has named, we are going to have to know the dangers and the strong feelings that we make our rules to handle. We don't have any laws or long philosophical books discussing whether we should install a roll of toilet paper on the holder with the free end draped over the top, or hanging from the bottom. The consequences of doing it either way are not serious in either case. Now walking up to a woman, shoving her on the ground, and fucking her whether she wants to or not - that's something we've got rules about, because there are some strong feelings involved.

This is the Internet, where we can say lots of things without getting punched out by the person we're addressing. Let's take advantage of the opportunity. I'm just as interested in what Snarla has to say as the other woman. Now the difference between this and the "bad energy" I was talking about when I was flaming Roger about his spamming three weeks ago is - this ain't manufactured hogwash just for the sake of pushing buttons. This is all real.

Hey...now having an alternate identity to write some of your stuff - that sounds interesting. OK.....Hey, guys, that post about women not having the balls - that wasn't written by Butterfly Bill, the calm, objective, compassionate, insightful - not to mention humble - literary symphonist that you know him to be. That other post was written by Bumblebee Bill - and you got to watch it with that guy - he'll sting you if you misspell a word in Gujarati! And Butterfly is, of course, in no imaginable way responsible for the actions of Bumblebee.....Hey, that was easy! I think I'll have Flutterby Bill write all the posts where I really put my head up my ass.

Mark said,

> How do we reprogram ourselves and those around us to be real, genuine, honest, compassionate, free, and loving?

I see an example in what AwiNoquisi's story of her upbringing. She said, among other things,

> I was lucky to have strong female figures in my life, as a child, and to have my father, who told me I could be anything, do anything, and say anything that a man can.

Nothing like education and example. And from what I've seen so far, she is at least one case of how it can work very well. (My Goddess, Julia...both you and Holly...I don't know WHAT I'm gonna do with you!!)

Now lets put on the asbestos suit and get to Maddy. She said,

> you should get out there and look rather than sitting in front of a computer complaining

I think too that it is a bit pathetic that I have to do this on a computer, but I'm doing it because in the last few weeks I have been able to say some things that I have been wanting to say to somebody for the last TWENTY FUCKING YEARS. They didn't talk about any of this in the women's studies classes I took in college. They didn't talk about this at the Twin Oaks Men's conference, that was mostly about homosexuality and fear of it. At a Rainbow brother-sister circle, it's the usual chickenshit - I wait two hours for the feather to get to me, and by that time most of the people have left. The only thing I have read anywhere about this is some things that Butterfly Bill put on a newsgroup. That essay that I have been running excerpts from, I wrote that two years ago with no idea who would ever be reading it. I did it originally as some solitary Western Yoga to at least turn my thoughts into controllable chaos.

Maddy also said,

> Incidentally, I'm not personally attracted to whiners.

I'm not attracted to people who dismiss as whining any complaining by other people that might require them to reassess their own view and maybe make some accommodations requiring effort. This sounds just like Rush Limburger talking about the "whining" of the feminazis. Your complaining - that's whining. My complaining - that, of course, is being assertive and claiming my rights.

Now whining - meaning just complaining and never doing anything to improve your condition by getting off your tushie and doing some work - I don't like that either. I know that my current single status is a result of my own decisions not to play a lot of games that I think are senseless and brutal to the feelings. I could just grit my teeth and pick up the phone and ask another woman out, but I don't want to do that any more. And what I'm getting is my own karma. As Julia said, don't settle for anything less than what one wants in relationships and in a mate. I won't settle for the uptight relationships that I get from playing the current game, and I'm gonna keep looking for that place where I don't have to do it like that any more.

And now to Snarla. She scowled,

> How do I know this is true? Because I am one of the women who has battled a weight problem all my life. I was thin for about eight years, and the men fell all over me. But when I gained sixty pounds, whoo boy, you'd think I was wearing a sign saying "I have the clap." Check it out, guys. Do you try to get next to the sisters who measure up to the standard American image of beauty? Do you forty- and fifty-year- olds just want the twenty-something women? If the young ones are who you are trying for, you deserve all the rejection you get.

I'll have you know that my last girlfriend was 40 years old, about five feet six, and probably close to 300 pounds. (I knew better than to ask exactly.) Yes, there are guys out here who like fat chicks - and BB is one of them. I have found most of them to be more affectionate, more outgoing to other people, with more of a sense of humor, and less likely to put an anxiety trip on me that the ones with fashion model figures. And they are something that really fills your arms when you hug them, and a nice big pillow to lie on. (Yes, I've gotten prejudiced!) This last girlfriend was definitely the most passionate lover in bed that I have ever been with. And no, I don't think they would be the same fat or thin. I would go so far to say that a lot of the same things about their chemical makeup that make them so sweet and people-y also make them "over" weight. I too find a strength of will in a woman over 40 that the younger ones haven't found yet, and would expect a really sharing relationship only with such a woman.

(And as I described in detail in my last post, women make just as big a thing about men's looks.)

> Check out the personal ads sometime. Men's ads almost always include "slim, attractive, height and weight proportionate."

The women always want someone who is "professional", and "financially secure". I figure that - as a construction worker - I'll never be either of those things.

> (Why do I bring race into it? Well, because in the Native American, Mexican American and African American cultures, a woman is valued for who she is, not for what she looks like).

I don't know about the Indians, but I got pretty immersed into the Chicano culture by my best friend and his family in Texas, and I hardly think that is the case. Hard to believe that from what I've seen of blacks, either. Lots of them are pretty macho and ready to shout things out of moving cars.

> he presented himself as being open, honest, reasonable, and sweet. It takes a few months before the Jekyll and Hyde stuff starts,

At the beginning the guy really wants to be all those things, but over the months the woman keeps doing things that result in his getting p.o'ed. Now note that I don't simply say that she does things to piss him off, I say "things that result in". It may be a chain of causations that has most of its links in his own mind, and unknown to the woman - but the result is the same. One night, he takes too much chemicals, the memories build up, the circuit breaker pops, and now that ol' cycle begins. And since dating never shows you how someone is in a real crisis, you never find out until a few months have passed.

> Aside from emotional, verbal, and psychological games, the control issues are unbelievable.

Lemme tell you, women can be just as much into control. This last girlfriend who was so almost good I had to leave because she had a long list of characteristics she required in her old man, and when I didn't fill the bill, she tried her damndest to change me over. She wanted to change the way I dressed, the way I talked, the things I was interested in, and convert me to Re-Evaluation Counseling. She also allowed me to sleep only on the right side of her bed, and she didn't ever want to do it in mine.

It's taken me two hours to get this far. I'll continue later.

- Butterfly Bill

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From: Dr. Leary
Subject: Love, etc.
Date: September 27, 1997

Go tell Alice when she's ten feet tall.
Love
Dr Tim

PS There's continual sex here in heaven!
PPS Elvis says hello

From: Legeia
Subject: Love, etc.
Date: September 27, 1997

Hey, this thread is getting more and more interesting.

True experiences, Julia, with getting lots more attention without glasses. Warpaint (as my best woman friend calls it) also draws male attention.

And Butterfly Bill, you're right about this confrontational issue. Seems to me that there's a different style of communicating on the Web - lots of emotion has less of an impact. And no danger of getting punched out. HAHAHA!

I think part of what bugs me is all this stereotyping. Women are ______ (fill in the blank). Men are _______ (fill in the blank). Its frustrating trying to deal with absolutes like that. I know lots of women who I have little in common with and whom I'm very different from. I know lots of men who I consider good friends and who share my ideas and ideals.

There are a lot of problems and yes, they need to be addressed. Male bashing has been something I've noticed with interest. Seems to be less of it lately, at least it seems to be tapering off. And why male bash, you guys ask? It's an outlet for frustration. I remember searching the bookshelves in high school and coming across a book called 'The Inferior Sex'. And this was a whole book devoted to, you guessed it, woman bashing. Women being physically, mentally, socially, and morally inferior to men. A book written by men to be read by men, based on stereotypes and misinformation. And sitting in a high school library. I regret to this day that I did not steal it and burn it. And this is just one instance of the kind of sublininal crap that floats around in society that we as women have had to deal with growing up. Frustrating? Damn right.

To be fair, I will say that this was 20 years ago and things and people have changed. But there are still scars to deal with. And its great to hear both sides. I no longer tell male bashing jokes - at some point, I started realizing that the amorphous 'men' in these jokes also included my male friends, whom I love dearly. Stereotyping is like a sword - it cuts us off from true awareness.

> > he presented himself as being open, honest, reasonable, and sweet. It takes a few months before the Jekyll and Hyde stuff starts,
> At the beginning the guy really wants to be all those things, but over the months the woman keeps doing things that result in his getting p.o'ed. Now note that I don't simply say that she does things to piss him off, I say "things that result in". It may be a chain of causations that has most of its links in his own mind, and unknown to the woman - but the result is the same. One night, he takes too much chemicals, the memories build up, the circuit breaker pops, and now that ol' cycle begins. And since dating never shows you how someone is in a real crisis, you never find out until a few months have passed.

Say now, this is very interesting and I'd really like to know why some guys get so ballistic - how can they justify this to themselves? I mean, what kind of a dialogue is going on in his head? Any of you lurker abusers want to reply?

You're stirring up a hornet's nest, Bumblebee Bill.

(snip)

Maddy Clare again:

> The idea that women seek abusive men is ludicrous. Some women ARE sick, but so are the MEN that taught them that pattern, i.e., to equate violence with love.

Mark:

> Some women are sick, but MEN taught them to be that way? Talk about ludicrous! What about personal responsibility? Aren't you doing the same thing you accused me of...complaining about some imaginary unfairness and weakness on men's part?

(end of snip)

This is a conversation I've had before. I do think that some women learn destructive patterns of behavior from men, especially young girls who have been abused by older men, incest, and such. You are a children's counselor, Mark. It seems logical to think that you've had to deal with some of the confusion, pain, and shame a young girl experiences when abused. Sorry to hear about your abuse, Holly. I hope you're doing okay now. I salute the survivors and from the tone of your posts, I feel you are someone who's learned some very valuable lessons. Yours is a calm voice. Enough for now. Just leaving you all with a funny snippet I just got from another newsgroup.

(snip)

NOTICE

We have not succeeded in solving all your problems. The answers we have found only serve to raise a whole set of new questions. In some ways, we feel we are as confused as ever, but we believe we are confused on a higher level and about more important things.

(end of snip)

Legeia

From: Mark
Subject: Love, etc.
Date: October 3, 1997

Legeia wrote:

> Hey, this thread is getting more and more interesting.
> (snip)
> Maddy Clare again:
> The idea that women seek abusive men is ludicrous. Some women ARE sick, but so are the MEN that taught them that pattern, i.e., to equate violence with love.
> Mark:
> Some women are sick, but MEN taught them to be that way? Talk about ludicrous! What about personal responsibility? Aren't you doing the same thing you accused me of...complaining about some imaginary unfairness and weakness on men's part?
> (end of snip)
> This is a conversation I've had before. I do think that some women learn destructive patterns of behavior from men, especially young girls who have been abused by older men, incest, and such. You are a children's counselor, Mark. It seems logical to think that you've had to deal with some of the confusion, pain, and shame a young girl experiences when abused.

This thread IS getting more and more interesting. I wish I had the time to address all the excellent points that are being brought up, but I don't. I do, however, feel the need to reply to this since it was in reply to what I had written.

Yes, I work with young girls and boys who have been unbelievably abused, in ways you don't want to hear about. And, yes, these kids grow up to be adults who, for the most part, are messed up in some pretty serious ways. However, there comes a time in each person's life (hopefully) when they discover that the past cannot be allowed to color the present and future any longer. This is a turning point, a moment when the hurt child decides to grow up and become a mature human being. This is the point in life where one realizes that they are responsible for their own happiness and that it is their responsibility to take action, to change and to grow. Usually counseling or therapy is needed to help these wounded folks face the past, confront it, and resolve it. Until the past is dealt with, the abused remains a child, I don't care how old the body is, the personality remains immature. It's time for all of us (me included!) to grow up, stop blaming others for our pain and unhappiness, and to make our lives more like what we want them to be.

This is not directed at any one person: If you are the victim of childhood abuse, get help! (most abused people need help, whether they admit that to themselves or not). There is no shame in asking for help! I had a terrible childhood and suffered greatly (as did those around me) through my teens, my twenties, and half of my thirties! Don't waste your life in pain...it's not neccessary! I've been in therapy three different times in the past 12 years, and will be in therapy again, I imagine. It's GOOD to have someone who listens intently to all you have to say, accepts you as you are (warts and all), reflects what you say from a new and different perspective so you see more clearly what you think and who you are, and gives you unconditional love as a human being. If your counselor isn't doing all of these things, find another one. If you can't afford it, call your local mental health agency, family services agency, or something similar. You can get free or very inexpensive counseling, if you really want it.

I love you all, brothers and sisters (warts and all!) -Mark

From: x9...@aol.com
Subject: Love, etc.
Date: October 3, 1997

In a message dated 97-10-03 06:21:44 EDT, you write:

> However, there comes a time in each person's life (hopefully) when they discover that the past cannot be allowed to color the present and future any longer

Yes, indeed,christians call it being reborn, i'm sure other cultures and religions have their own term for this, it is the central theme behind Mehere Babbas-be here now ideaology--i personally see this as one reason the gatherings continue to continue--providing an actual physical place and mental arena for many folks to find refuge from the past, a different type of present and hope for the future

> This is the point in life where one realizes that they are responsible for their own happiness and that it is their responsibility to take action, to change and to grow. It's time for all of us (me included!) to grow up, stop blaming others for our pain and unhappiness,and to make our lives more like what we want them to be.

to me, this is why it is important to continue to emphasize--"that we gather as individuals to worship in the catherdal of nature"--to make each person realize that their individual action reflects on the whole-- and that the whole is willing to deal with their individual unhappiness thru heart song councils, thru individual careing and concern and sometimes by offering what is generally known as "tough love"--the methods vary but the theme is the same--you are you, yet part of a family that expects you to be respectful toward others and to share in the joy of being alive

> It's GOOD to have someone who listens intently to all you have to say, accepts you as you are (warts and all), reflects what you say from a new and different perspective so you see more clearly what you think and who you are, and gives you unconditional love as a human being.>>

Hopefully, at gatherings, with a more relaxed pace of life than babylon offers, each individual can find that unique time and place where others do listen and reflect and respond from their own experiences--imparting knowledge gained, like passing the baton in the relay race of life--not judgementally but rather couched in the spirit of love we all seek------------------------------s

From: Christophe Barbey
Subject: Love, etc.
Date: October 3, 1997

From: X9...@aol.com

> Hopefully, at gatherings, with a more relaxed pace of life than babylon offers, each individual can find that unique time and place where others do listen and reflect and respond from their own experiences--imparting knowledge gained, like passing the baton in the relay race of life--not judgementally but rather couched in the spirit of love we all seek------------------------------s

Hu ? Brain cells and heart connexions !
I love it, and I love you both...

Kriss

From: Vince Henri
Subject: Love, etc.
Date: October 4, 1997

> From: X9...@aol.com

:-o HO :-o

Nicely put....

peace and love + irb +

From: AwiNoquisi
Subject: Love, etc.
Date: October 6, 1997

Mark wrote:

> confront it, and resolve it. Until the past is dealt with, the abused remains a child, I don't care how old the body is, the personality remains immature. It's time for all of us (me included!) to grow up, stop blaming others for our pain and unhappiness, and to make our lives more like what we want them to be.

Amen Mark! Speaking from personal experience, it has been a long path to recovery. The pain from childhood abuse never fully goes away, I think, but it does ease with time. I was a wild teenager, and didn't really abuse anyone but myself, but that was bad enough. In a sick way, I thought I deserved it. My life changed when I started cultivating myself and when I saw a therapist. I had a great one, an older female lady who was a hippie. I would love to add more, but I'm at Mom's house and it's din-din time! : )

Lovin Y'all,
Julia

 

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