Goddessmyass Part 3

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Goddessmyass - part 3

> Shocking to find BB approving of my stuff.

You won't have to be shocked any more if you keep this up, Roger. Talking from your heart and your experience, telling us more about yourself, telling stories. That's the way, uh huh uh huh, I LIKE it.

> It seems they are turned off by sweet gentlemen, brothers that are shy and respectful will always finish last and if you don't have a series of cutesy 'lines' on the tip of your tongue

HO! You can be the most honest, considerate, good worker, one who wouldn't do violence to a mosquito - but all that can't compete with being a really smooth talker. It's just like Rainbow vision council and Babylon elections. The long talkers take everything.

> talked about communication and all the politically correct Robert Bly type stuff

Isn't Robert Bly a pompous windbag who can't even find his ass to put his head up? All my problems come from not having learned to really grieve for my father, so I have to go out in the woods and beat on some drums and find my Wild Man. It's obvious he has never had to work at a real job for a while. He probably has lots of girl friends cuz he's such a good bullshitter.

I'm gonna follow this with some excerpts from something I wrote a while ago. It's long for a post, so everybody get a cup of coffee:

I'm glad to see we're getting some ignition, here. LOVE seeing all these new posts by guys coming out with their tales of frustration.

I'll add some more for Mark's "I don't get it", file - a view from a slightly different side than some of you might think you're on. It's actually more from the thing I wrote a while ago - the beginning part, which leads up to the words that open what I posted last Friday. There's more after that - I might keep feeding more in as this consciousness raising session develops.

- Butterfly Bill

***************

For a start, I'll say that I have to conclude – from observing the way women continue to react to me – that I am drop dead good looking. I'm handsome, I'm a hunk, but mostly I'm cute. I started getting the message in the seventh grade, and 35 years later they still tell me so with their smiles, the looks in their eyes, or the tone of voice in which they say, "Hi".

If I'm out in public – shopping, working, seeing a show, or such – on the average I will get in a day at least three smiles from women I have never seen before. If I am working or taking a class in one place – doing something where I am in regular contact with the same group of women – after about two months more than three fourths of them will have made a long smiling pass at me at one time or another.

I see women talk among themselves and giggle, while turning their heads and stealing glances at me – then suddenly stop talking if for some reason I come near them. I've had groups of women in cars honk horns at me, wave, yell things like "Hi, baby cakes, how's it going?", and do other antics you would normally think only truck drivers do to young girls. I've had a bus full of girls on a sorority tour pass by me on the street, and one of them yell out the window, "Well hello, good lookin', how's it going?", over loud giggles in the background.

It doesn't matter how I am dressed or how my hair is. It doesn't matter if I am dirty or clean. They've smiled at me when I've been dressed up, they've smiled at me in jeans. They've honked at me when I've been in dirty construction job clothes covered with sweat and paint chips. They've smiled when I've been wearing a skirt (which I do in public), they've smiled when I'm in a dress (which I usually am at Rainbow Gatherings). They've smiled when I've been naked, and put on their sunglasses and stared.

I don't believe any of those magazine ads and TV commercials – I know I don't need any of their clothes or cosmetics. Women will flirt with me no matter what condition I'm in. They don't care that I've been going bald since I was 20. They don't mind when I wear glasses. They don't care that I've got a smaller than average penis (I've even had some tell me outright they think it's cute).

Their flirting continues even as I get visibly older – if anything, it intensifies. I continue to have teenage girls giggling over me, even though I am now three times as old as some of them. All this is apparently never going to end. The older I get the cuter I get, and I wonder what it's going to be like when I am 70.

But what has being good looking got me as far as a love life? Basically, it has meant that I get to see a lot of looking and do a lot of looking. That's it, nothing but looking – very little talking, even less touching.

In a New Age-ish setting with touchy-feely customs, I get to hug women hello and good bye – while we are both standing up. But I had better not even think about doing any hugging while we both are sitting, or (gasp!) lying down. Forget about sitting and snuggling. (A hug in this setting has gotten to mean about as much as a handshake in the business world.)

In any other environment, I'd better keep my hands to myself. I sometimes have to watch that I don't lose my job or get taken to see the judge on a sexual harassment charge.

Sex of any kind is a rare and unexpected happening. Unless I can manage to Get In A Relationship with one of them – according to whatever their preconceived notions of one is – I have learned not to even mention it. Rosie Palms is the only reliable sex partner I have ever had, and I don't have to fantasize while taking matters into my own hands. I have a vast mental library of actual visual memories to draw upon.

I get lots of visual affection from women on a continuing and daily basis, and it all is certainly better than no affection at all. It can do small things to nourish my emotional hungers. But it is all visual – no touching, just looking.

On one hand I can remember all the male attitudes that were laid on me in the locker rooms and the barracks. Playboy pinups on the inside of the locker doors. Hearing other men ask, "Hey, have you gotten any pussy?" Saying, "Damn, will you look at the tits on that bitch? God, I wish she'd sit on my face." Making a big joke out of getting the clap. Asking "What's the matter, are you queer? A little nooky never hurt anyone." Saying to a friend, "She goes to church, but I am just about getting to where I can break her down." I know all about Men Who Treat Women As Objects. I have been oppressed by them too, with their ridicule and scorn for my not wanting to play along with their games. I can hardly blame women for being leery of men when these attitudes are so prevalent among them. I can believe almost all of their stories about sexual harassment, and I would not want to be on the receiving end of it either. But it seems that no amount of trying to be a nice guy can overcome the prejudice of most of them.

There are times in the past that I've tried showing what I thought was sincere affection, toward women whom I thought I was getting to know well. I've tried holding hands or putting my arm around them, in what I thought was a gentle and sincere matter. And I have sometimes gotten vicious reactions for it - dirty looks, "Get your hands off me", "You make me nervous when you do that". Other times they've just stiffened up and stood there until I've stopped.

And I observe a lot of two-facedness about it in the women. I've had them fool around with me, start rubbing my back up and down while talking to me, pinch me on the ass as they walk by, move up next to me so that our sides are touching while we are talking. Then some of these same women will get indignant if I try doing the same things back to them.

They will walk up and give other men hugs and snuggles in front of me, and then act all self-righteous if I try doing the same things to them. I overhear them complaining to other women about how they don't have any sex life - and then they treat me like I'm evil for even wanting it if I try making any advances toward them.

I have now been totally vibed out of offering physical affection of any kind toward any woman. I will wait for them to start - otherwise, I never can know what kind of reaction I will get.

I am very angry at other men for creating all the fear that I encounter in women, but I hate women even more for the prejudice they have shown me.

And I especially get angry when I see them giving satisfaction toward men who treat them the way they say they don't want to be. I have observed more than one stud who tries to put the make on every woman he sees actually succeed in getting a lot of pussy. These men may get slapped in the face the first nine times they try, but they score on the tenth - while all along the nice guy who tries to be respectful gets only dreams. They may complain repeatedly about what a jerk their current flame is, but it seems sometimes that they deliberately pick the ones who are going to be assholes to them.

Women, out of one side of their mouth, tell me that they don't want to be sexually harassed, but if they do want me, almost all of them expect me to make all the first moves. I'm supposed to start all the conversations, I'm supposed to ask them out - not the other way around.

Most women will try to start something with me by giving me long, obvious smiles - or saying, "Hi", every time I walk by - and then waiting for me to react. I have had women who have dolled themselves up with makeup and perfume come up and sit next to me, and then continue to sit and say nothing while waiting for me to give them whatever their idea is of an opening line.

Sometimes - if I don't respond according to their expectations - they start pouting at me, giving me angry stares, or reacting with hostility even if I do try to start a conversation. They are intolerant of any shyness in me, but they think it's all right for them. They won't tell me outright that they are interested in me, and they certainly wont ask me out. It's like they expect me to be able to read their minds, interpret all their subtle signals correctly, and know intuitively what to do without any verbal instructions.

But even if I can read their signals right, I find it very hard to be able to take all these initiatives when they do some of the other things they do.

I know many guys with huge male egos want to do all the talking while their girl sits there with cow eyes and a waitress smile, laughing at all their jokes and agreeing with all their opinions. Lots of women come to expect this. But I have trouble just sitting there orating. I have a right-hemisphere artist brain that comes up with sequential strings of words only with great effort. I can converse when it is give and take - when she is offering her own views and feelings, and giving me something to react to. But very few women will offer me this when they get attracted to me.

I overhear them talking up a storm when they are with their female friends, but they will clam up in front of me. They're full of funny jokes and passionate opinions that they give to the other women, but I seldom hear any of them. I get very frustrated because I would like to hear many of the same things they tell each other. They could talk to me just like I was one of the other girls, and I could listen fascinated. All they would have to do is share their life with me and I could easily share mine with them - but they won't.

There are times I walk up to a woman whom I have not talked to before just to ask an ordinary question - like, "What time is it?", or, "When does the bus leave?" - and watch them get completely flustered. They almost forget how to speak completely. I seem to have a talent for scaring women speechless. But many act like it's all my fault if I can't talk to them.

Furthermore I see that many women like to make sport of laughing at a guy's attempts at advances. And believe me, having this happen to you a few times is very negative reinforcement. They like to be in the position where they can do the rejecting, and not have to risk the embarrassment or humiliation of being turned down and even laughed at themselves.

I also can't believe any more that - just because a woman is smiling and making eyes at me - that means that I can approach them and start a relationship with no obstructions. Many - perhaps the majority- of women who've flirted with me have turned out to be married, going with another boyfriend, or for some other reason unapproachable. I have even had lesbians flirt with me. It seems like many just want to see if they can get a reaction out of me, and nothing more.

I have to conclude that there are a lot of women who are bored and unhappy with their current significant others, and are wondering if they can still attract someone else - just in case they need to. I have been the subject of many of their experiments. If they give me a smile, it may or may not mean that they want any more than just to see if I smile back.

It seems that most of the time, their flirting is not done with any malice. I know I could still think that a woman is a cutie pie even while I am in a more serious relationship with someone else, and I like to exchange good feelings. But mostly what this means for me is that I have to take smiles just as a compliment, nothing more - not as a signal that they want anything more out of me.

Nobody wears any labels saying, "I am (am not) available." Even checking her hands for rings isn't reliable. You can maybe find out by eavesdropping on her conversations, watching her behavior with other men, or asking other people who know her. If you try asking a woman directly, usually their answer will be followed by the question, "Why do you ask?" with a laughingly suspicious expression on her face. By indirect means you can find out that she definitely is attached, but seldom that she definitely isn't.

I certainly don't entertain any more the idea that - if I respond to the smiles of a woman already in a relationship - she will break up with her current mate and come to me. I have found this to be seldom the case. She might complain and complain about her boyfriend, but she will continue to try to patch things up with him in defiance of all logic. It won't matter how much better I am treating them.

I also don't covet other people's wives, and it isn't because I read the Bible. If you try to have an affair with a married woman, it will always have to be done in the afternoons or at other times when her husband isn't around. He dictates the times of your meetings just by his presence or absence. You can't go to any public events with her. You can forget about spending any holidays with her. You will never meet her kids or anyone else in her family. You will be worrying all the time about being found out. And the divorce you're waiting for won't come - one night she will start feeling all guilty and go back to her old man and leave you high, dry, and horny, and the villain in this melodrama.

So to sum it up so far: women don't want me to make improper advances or sexually harass them - but if they do want to get romantic with me, they expect me to make all the first moves. They don't tell me what they want directly, but send me indirect signals they expect me to respond to. But they render all of these signals unreliable with their contradictory behavior. Then they sometimes make the consequences of misinterpreting these signals serious. Then they treat me with hostility if I don't respond to their signals out of fear of the possible consequences.

All this would make me very cautious about asking a woman for a date, if I did date. But I don't date any more. I tried it for a while in college, and stopped. I can't get over the fundamental absurdities that I see in the whole system.

On the traditional date, the man does the asking, decides on the place to go, arrives in his vehicle to pick her up, does the ordering for both in a restaurant, holds the door open, takes off her coat, pulls out her chair - all the time acting like the woman is incapable of doing anything or thinking for herself

When you do the asking, you hope you have read her signals correctly, you hope she's into the kind of thing you're asking her to do, and you dread finding out she is already involved with someone else. You guess at the meaning of her declining your offer. If she says, "I already have plans", that can mean she has plans, or someone else is dating her, or she wants you to get out of her life. The woman gets to look at you with steepled fingers and have the luxury of turning you down and then giggling about it with her female friends - she never has to be the one to put her dreams and pride onto a plate to offer to you to maybe knock over.

If she turns you down, you can try to be stoical and rational - but there is no way it isn't going to hurt. You get to throw all your daydreams into the trash, and wonder why you aren't as good as the guys she does accept dates with..

If you do get the date, both of you get all cleaned up and look better than you usually look, smell better than you usually smell, and dress up better than you usually dress. You go to a place where you sit in an audience and can't have a conversation, or where the music is so loud that you can't even hear one -or you go and have dinner and be sure only to talk about pleasant things.

Talk about the weather or the movies you've seen, don't talk about your recent divorce or your relative who just died. Be witty and entertaining, crack jokes; don't bitch too much or she'll think you're a grouch. God forbid that you should spill something on yourself or let a fart.

It is taboo to talk about what is really on your minds, things like: I think you are good looking. Do you think I am? I am sexually aroused by you. Can I do sexual things with you? Do you belong to some religion that says you can't? Do you have any diseases? I am looking for someone to marry. Are you? Do you want me? Do you like me? Why? Am I coming off like a complete fool? Thoughts like these are occupying most of the attention of both of you, and thoughts that would lead to conversation about anything else have to be searched for with special effort.

You get to spend all evening wondering how far you can go with affection - should I put my arm around her? Should I try to kiss her? Is she going to invite me in? You get to wonder all the time if you're going to say something that will turn her off.

In the old days the man had to pay for both, and the man could get to spend a lot of money just to go home with frustration. Now some of the women will pay their way, but you often don't find out if she is one of those people until it's time to do it. This becomes another thing you get to wonder and worry about.

Doing all this, you're supposed to find your future wife or husband, someone to live with for the rest of your life - to wake up in the morning next to, to be in the bathroom with, to take care of a house with, to share all the challenges of having children with, to grow old with.

You don't find out on a date if they fart or snore, or leave dirty dishes in the sink or clothes on the floor. Only by accident do you find out what they're like when they are frustrated and angry, or scared. You don't find out their real attitudes toward sex. You don't find out what their philosophy is about keeping a house, disciplining children, handling money, or any of the other things that marital conflicts can arise out of.

The whole affair is like sprucing up something for a sale. It's like advertising - hide the imperfections, exaggerate the good points. Make sure she doesn't find out about this and that. It's like distorting yourself into a resumé and going to a job interview. You try to build up a lot of expectations that you might have a hard time living up to after you're hired.

I have had great times going with women to see shows, have dinner in restaurants, and other things that are traditional dating activities - but never when I was doing them on a date. It has been after we had discovered our intimacy outside the dating game - something I have been able to do only on rare occasions.

- Butterfly Bill

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Right on, Butterfly Bill! As a woman, it made me sad to read many of the things you wrote. As a human being, actually, it made me sad. I think it comes down to this: women and men should treat each other the way they themselves wish to be treated. It's an old rule, old as time, found throughout the world in almost all religions and spiritual beliefs! I already posted in response to Laughing Bull's, but I wanted to let you know that I just wanted to say HO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You wrote:

> There are times in the past that I've tried showing what I thought was sincere affection, toward women whom I thought I was getting to know well. I've tried holding hands or putting my arm around them, in what I thought was a gentle and sincere matter. And I have sometimes gotten vicious reactions for it - dirty looks, "Get your hands off me", "You make me nervous when you do that". Other times they've just stiffened up and stood there until I've stopped.

Bro, I've had men do the same danged thing with me. Stiffen up, get wierded out. But about that, we must remember that many people have been treated so ill by others that they no longer trust others, and they no longer know what genuine, gentle affection is! I used to react the same way to the human touch, so believe me, I know! Like I told Laughing Bull, keep your chin up and keep on smiling... Praying doesn't hurt, either... You also wrote:

> jokes and passionate opinions that they give to the other women, but I seldom hear any of them. I get very frustrated because I would like to hear many of the same things they tell each other. They could talk to me just like I was one of the other girls, and I could listen fascinated. All they would have to do is share their life with me and I could easily share mine with them - but they won't.

Well, bro, again, women are conditioned in our society to not share what they are thinking and feeling with men. That is a big no-no, and I really hope that women can break free of these stupid chains! Also, I would apologize for women in general, but that is not my place. I will say to keep on looking, though... We are out here!

Brightest blessings and bunches of love,
Julia

AwiNo...@aol.com

What I don't understand is why I always want to be with women. I mean I have many great bros and we actually communicate with content and awareness yet my continuous desire is to be with women. To talk, to joke and laugh, to discuss interests and philosophy, to have intercourse in all it's definitions. Yet I look around and many of the sisters are off with each other apparently disinterested in men. Maybe the sisterhood is so much stronger than the brotherhood that they would rather be amongst themselves. Maybe men have been so boorish and abusive over the centuries that women don't care to come near us any longer. Or maybe I'm the healthy one loving and desiring and dreaming of the opposite sex and the girls have been coopted by a feminazi doctrine that encourages reverse sexism, self centered isolation and egotistical counter evolutionary political correctness. Julia don't apologize for loser drama queens and I won't apologize for my unrepentant lust for you!

LUV
BULL

Butterfly Bill wrote:

> I'm gonna follow this with some excerpts from something I wrote a while ago. It's long for a post, so everybody get a cup of coffee:

I've been reading these posts by my good brothers with sadness and empathy. I, too, am a "good" guy who has pretty much given up on finding a woman who can accept me and love me for who and what I am. It's been 3 1/2 years since my last encounter with a woman. She found me too boring, I suppose. No alcoholic fighting, no police action, no reckless driving, no abuse...just friendliness, happiness, compassion, empathy, listening skill, love for her and her children, hard work, education, etc. etc. etc. I think we are all screwed up by our sick, sick society...good is bad, bad is good. Sensitivity=weakness, feminism=man-bashing. Men are fair game for subtle and not so subtle put-downs and bigotry. We seem to have all been branded with the same hot iron, even though we all would agree that stereotyping is wrong and small-minded. (I guess it's only wrong to stereotype anyone EXCEPT men).

It's amazing to me that, in 3 1/2 years, not one woman has made any attempt to ask me out or to even flirt with me. I'm fairly easy on the eyes, employed as a children's counselor, happy, funny, smart, hard working, and deeply caring and loving. What's up with that? Am I too scary? Too good? Is female equality just a sham? If I have to be an asshole to get a woman, I choose to remain single, thank you very much! I don't want a woman who wants an asshole. Is there any woman out there who wants a really good and decent man? Don't get me wrong, I'm far from perfect, but I keep growing and evolving and learning. Seems a shame to waste a guy like me!

I wish some of the sisters reading this would speak up. Let us know what is going on, because I DON'T GET IT! Do you? -Mark

To email me, click on this: mailto:Ma...@ozcool.com OR remove the "nospam" from the header. Peace!

From: Mark <Ma...@nospam.ozcool.com>

> I wish some of the sisters reading this would speak up. Let us know what is going on, because I DON'T GET IT! Do you? -Mark

Maybe Butterfly Bill was right, most women just don't have the "balls" to tackle this issue! (Holly and Julia excepted...) Lovin' you all, J

Beautiful post. Thanks. I too work with kids and go home to an empty house everyday. The good guys have their own special burdens. Sometime I think my love life is dominated by past life karma I cannot fully understand. I also sometimes think that this is to be my last lifetime on this plane and I must go it alone to finish off all the lessons. This hurts.

Hey Mark I know lonelines and horniness suck but there are great rewards in service and awareness. Great to hear from you.

LUV
BULL

PS I'm begging for a cyber date beautiful J

One must not forget spiritual principle. There are forces such as destiny and Karma at work especially relative to such profound issues as Love and the search for Soul Mates. It is grand that we men are expressing. It is superb that some of the sisters are willing to participate in our expression. Men sing your heart songs! Our sharing the deapest of our thoughts feelings and ambitions is about our Souls!

Liberation is at hand!

Love and Light

sunray wrote:

> Maybe Butterfly Bill was right, most women just don't have the "balls" to tackle this issue! (Holly and Julia excepted...) Lovin' you all, J

Hey J! Maybe you're right...I don't know, but I have the feeling that we are getting so few replys because of one of the following reasons:

1. Women are just as confused about all this shit as men are. They don't know what to say because they don't "get it" either.

2. Perhaps women who have read our words think we are just a bunch of whining crybabies who should just be quiet about our pain.

3. Maybe women reading our words really do hate men and they enjoy seeing us hurt.

4. Maybe most of the women on this newsgroup already have their man and don't feel any desire to help us out.

5. Maybe some of our sisters have something to say, but don't want to "sell out" their feminist sisters.

6. Maybe it's something else altogether.

That's the problem when you don't get any feedback...the imagination runs wild and you tend to assume the worst.

By the way, I vote for option 1 above.

-Mark (still open to female feedback/input/advice/wisdom)

From: Mark <Ma...@nospam.ozcool.com>

> Hey J! Maybe you're right...I don't know, but I have the feeling that we are getting so few replys because of one of the following reasons:

Hi Mark,

I was prompted to write when I read your post. I didn't want to get involved in writing before just because I've felt that there has been a good deal of hostility toward women expressed in this newsgroup and that any sort of explanations/replies would be met with the same kind of anger and intolerance which have been expressed so often in the past couple of weeks. The challenge of others saying most women don't have the 'balls' to write also puts the whole issue into a confrontational arena, hardly conducive to respectful interaction.

Your attitude of questioning, and openness in expressing your pain make me empathize with your loneliness. I can't speak for all women, but I do think a lot of women are confused about relationships, just as men are confused about relationships. There used to be traditional guidelines, roles for how each sex was supposed to act, but now we're buffeted by messages from the media, messages from the society, messages from each other about how we 'should' be. There is so much information being pushed on us, from which each individual has to choose their own path - there are no longer any roadmaps, a situation which can create chaos. I believe that people becoming aware of this potential for chaos can open the door to some real communication between the genders. You yourself opened the door by suggesting that women also may be confused, showing empathy and a true willingness to hear another person's side of the story. Because underneath our external genitalia, we're all human beings and we're really all so much more alike than different. I would prefer to focus on those similarities and the areas in which we can find common ground, where we can care about and support each other and help each other to understand these perplexing issues. I think it is a shame that a man like you doesn't have a relationship, but I want to tell you not to give up hope. I believe there are a lot of women out there who would be very glad to be involved with a man like you, someone who is empathetic, responsible, intelligent, and open to evolving. Those are all sterling qualities. I just think you haven't yet met that person who can appreciate you, but I think you will. It's very scary to stay open and continue taking chances when you've been burned, but you seem like the kind of person who has that type of courage. Have faith and I believe love will come to you. In the meantime, I wish you all the best and send you my support and caring.

Legeia

> sunray wrote:
> > Maybe Butterfly Bill was right, most women just don't have the "balls" to tackle this issue! (Holly and Julia excepted...)
> Hey J! Maybe you're right...I don't know, but I have the feeling that we are getting so few replys because of one of the following reasons:

hey now!

Not sure who said the bit about "expecting the worst", but maybe that's your problem...

I don't feel responsible for other women, dislike generalized discussions based on stereotypical conjecture, and basically think that if you're looking for a woman you should get out there and look rather than sitting in front of a computer complaining about some imagined unfairness and weakness on the part of more than half the species. The idea that women seek abusive men is ludicrous. Some women ARE sick, but so are the MEN that taught them that pattern, i.e., to equate violence with love. I work in my community daily to address the damage done by men like that.

Maybe if you got out of yourselves, and say, volunteered at something, you know, for free, you would be getting on the right track. After all, if you're not part of the solution, ... you know the rest.

Incidentally, I'm not personally attracted to whiners.
good luck!

maddy clare

sunray wrote:

> Maybe Butterfly Bill was right, most women just don't have the "balls" to tackle this issue! (Holly and Julia excepted...)

I most definitely want to respond - it has touched me - this talk, and I wish to reach out to you all - Mark, Butterfly Bill and whomever else. I just don't have time to go into it as much as I would like right now.

Soon, I hope to. May it not be stale by then! Or better yet, may it not be necessary!

Love you men - along with my sisters -
Holly

Hiya!

Well, guys, like I said before, I don't understand why most women seem to want to be abused. I certainly had enough of all the victim stuff as a child. Since we have mainly discussed women so far, I would like to present a woman's point of view about men.

As far as flirting goes, some of you guys said women don't approach you. Well, men hardly ever flirt with me first. For a long time, I did not understand why this is... I'm cute, in good shape, intelligent as hell, kind, and open-minded. I asked a guy friend what the problem was, and he said that he thought that most guys probably think I am "taken." Well, I see men flirting with married women all the time, so this cannot be it. What's up with that? So, I usually end up flirting first. I would like to be approached every now and then. It grows old having to chase men. I have noticed that sometimes I leave men saying, "huh?" when I am speaking with them. Are men so intimidated by intelligent women? I am starting to think that is the answer, because I can't think of anything else.

Then, I have this other problem. Several men that I have developed relationships with seem to be one way at first, and then they end up doing a personality-switcheroo on me. For example, alot of them say they are not jealous and then BOOM! Like one very nice guy (at first) seemed totally cool with the fact that I have a ton of guy-friends. Then, one night, he freaked the funk on me, yelled and screamed at me, because I gave a a pal a hug, who happened to be a guy. Arrgh! I really dislike the green-eyed monster, and I despise yelling and such, so I told him nicely that he and I would definitely not work out. I am simply affectionate with all my friends. Is that so bad? And then, I dated another guy, recently, who actually asked me to give up all male friends because he felt threatened. HA! Exit, stage left!

I guess I shall wrap this up by saying: hell, most men and women wouldn't know a good thing if it slapped them in the face. You know, I am kind of glad, though, because eventually, one of those wonderful men out there will be my soulmate, and he is going to be brutally treated and dumped by some drama-queen, for being such a nice guy; and I am going to end up with him amd we shall live (mostly) happily ever after. : )

Love to All, even the drama-queens,
Julia

AwiNo...@aol.com

AwiNoquisi wrote:

> Hiya!

Hiya Julia! I'm so glad to see your posts. You sound great!

> Well, guys, like I said before, I don't understand why most women seem to want to be abused. I certainly had enough of all the victim stuff as a child. Since we have mainly discussed women so far, I would like to present a woman's point of view about men.

Good! That's what I've been waiting for. I really do want to understand things from a female perspective.

> As far as flirting goes, some of you guys said women don't approach you. Well, men hardly ever flirt with me first. For a long time, I did not understand why this is... I'm cute, in good shape, intellingent as hell, kind, and open-minded. I asked a guy friend what the problem was, and he said that he thought that most guys probably think I am "taken." Well, I see men flirting with married women all the time, so this cannot be it. What's up with that? So, I usually end up flirting first. I would like to be approached every now and then.

I am amazed how your experiences ars so similar to mine! What is wrong with people these days, anyhoo? You sound very nice...I would flirt with you, given the chance! ;)

> It grows old having to chase men. I have noticed that sometimes I leave men saying, "huh?" when I am speaking with them. Are men so intimidated by intelligent women? I am starting to think that is the answer, because I can't think of anything else.

Many men are intimidated by intelligent women. Personally, I love intelligent women! I think many men are afraid to admit to themselves that they are not the smartest, strongest, bestest person around. Low self-esteem may cause this defensive behavior (yikes, my psychbackground is showing!)

> Then, I have this other problem. Several men that I have developed relationships with seem to be one way at first, and then they end up doing a personality-switcheroo on me. For example, alot of them say they are not jealous and then BOOM! Like one very nice guy (at first) seemed totally cool with the fact that I have a ton of guy-friends. Then, one night, he freaked the funk on me, yelled and screamed at me, because I gave a a pal a hug, who happened to be a guy. Arrgh! I really dislike the green-eyed monster, and I despise yelling and such, so I told him nicely that he and I would definitely not work out.
> I am simply affectionate with all my friends. Is that so bad?

NO, NO, NO!

> And then, I dated another guy, recently, who actually asked me to give up all male friends because he felt threatened. HA! Exit, stage left!

Good for you, Julia! I like the way you take care of yourself, getting rid of those jealous and possesive guys. Don't change that part of you, it's GOOD.

> I guess I shall wrap this up by saying: hell, most men and women wouldn't know a good thing if it slapped them in the face. You know, I am kind of glad, though, because eventually, one of those wonderful men out there will be my soulmate, and he is going to be brutally treated and dumped by some drama-queen, for being such a nice guy; and I am going to end up with him amd we shall live (mostly) happily ever after. : )

Yes, I think you're right. I think we will all eventually find what we want and need...it's just a pain to have to keep looking and waiting. I hope you and I meet someday, Julia. You are an intriguing woman.

> Love to All, even the drama-queens,

and love to you, too! -Mark

To email me, click on this: mailto:Ma...@ozcool.com OR remove the "nospam" from the header. Peace!

AwiNoquisi wrote:

> I agree that we are in a sick, sick society that tries to condition children into these typical, nasty behaviors of the average man and woman. Between the impossibly proportioned blonde dolls (you know!) and the little war machine's dolls, it's no wonder we have so many women caught up in anorexia/bulimia and men caught in the "kill mode." ICK! "Stop the world, I wanna get off!" Just kidding.

Hi Julia (again),

We agree that our society is sick, and that we have been conditioned to be sick since birth, so now what do we do? How do we reprogram ourselves and those around us to be real, genuine, honest, compassionate, free, and loving? How can we get together and love each other? I can't really speak for anyone but myself, but it seems like so many of us have been hurt and dissappointed so many times by so many sad and sick people, that we've closed off some part of our hearts to love and risk-taking. I know I've pulled back from trying to meet women (3 1/2 yrs) because I've been hurt and abandoned one too many times. However, I am beginning to feel the desire to try again, to open my heart and take the big chance that I may be hurt again. Pretty scary stuff!

Being alone these past few years have been good for me, I think. I feel healed and recharged somehow. I was able to spend my spare time and energy getting to know my wonderful son, Charlie, through the very important years (12-16). That part of being partnerless has been great and I don't regret a moment of it! We have a relationship that most fathers don't have with their teenage sons, that's for sure. Well, I'm rambling now sooooooo..........

Peace, love, and all good things to you. -Mark

To email me, click on this: mailto:Ma...@ozcool.com OR remove the "nospam" from the header. Peace!

From: LIGH...@webtv.net (LIGHT&LOVE)

> One must not forget spiritual principle. There are forces such as destiny and Karma at work especially relative to such profound issues as Love and the search for Soul Mates. It is grand that we men are expressing. It is superb that some of the sisters are willing to participate in our expression. Men sing your heart songs! Our sharing the deapest of our thoughts feelings and ambitions is about our Souls! Liberation is at hand!

Ho !
Kriss

Just wanted to say, "amen, Ligeia."

A great big bear hug to all,
Julia

You folks are sweet...
I hope this morning's message was not too sarcastical...
I thought about the relation between teaching, hearing and sarcasm...
Not so good, rarely needed, like when really cant hear anything else...

Stay sweet, so I dont have to feel sarcastical... (i'll avoid it
better now that I know what to trade it for....)...

Yooooooooooooooo.....
I love you all, Hugzzzzzzz's sweeeeeeeet,
And mumble grumble, on the cheek...

Kriss

Hiya again!

I am so happy to see all of us discussing this... Mark asked:

> How do we reprogram ourselves and those around us to be real, genuine, honest, compassionate, free, and loving? How can we get together and love each other?

Excellent question. I'm amazed none of us has asked this before, actually. : ) I guess when one's heart is so close to a subject, s/he often overlooks what is right in front of him/her. Anyway, I am not really sure of the answer, Mark; I think the answer may be different for each individual. I was lucky to have strong female figures in my life, as a child, and to have my father, who told me I could be anything, do anything, and say anything that a man can. (Except for writing my name in piss--I still have a certain fascination with that! LOL!) I do still catch myself sometimes, though, thinking in the conditioned mode. I think that when we catch ourselves playing into these brainwashed behaviors, we should encourage ourselves to take heart and to break free. I also think that we should all take a part in a child's life, and try to show her/him how to be an individual, without regard to traditional views on gender.

Mark also wrote:

> Being alone these past few years have been good for me, I think. I feel healed and recharged somehow.

Man, I think that is great that you could spend the time alone. So many people get lonely and get into a miserable relationship to avoid being by themselves. I think being alone also helps one to get to know him/herself. My sister-in-law-to-be and I have had many discussions about not settling for anything less than what one wants in relationships and in a mate. We both agree that one should not settle, not shortchange him/herself. (Easy to say when you already have a mate, though, huh?) Well, I think it is important to not be discouraged by icky men and women, and to know that there are great human beings left out there. You guys that have been discussing this all have really comforted me as far as that goes. I hope I have done the same for y'all! Mark, open that heart wide open. Just don't let any woman take advantage of it. Don't settle for less! :>)

Lovin all of you,
Julia

P.S. Mark, thanks for the compliments. I would flirt with a together, big-hearted man like you anytime too! : )

Hey Mark!

Yeah I agree, actually I think women are perhaps more confused because of the natural inclination to want a situation in contrast to past practices. They feel a need to oppose social conditions as they were, without yet realizing that if we just invert the gender roles/responsibilities/etc. then we’ll get the same social problems but in reverse. Thus we get women wanting to be like men, instead of wanting to be like women. How confusing for everyone!

It does seem to me though, like we’re past the height of the feminist reationary men hating syndrome. But still, part of coming back into balance again is for us men to continue to share our songs of loneliness and abuse, to provoke women into reacting to us, not as women used to, or as men wannabes, but as real women who will eventually need real men. I am convinced that we won’t be able to truly change society, until we stand together again as men and women, united in family bonds, and unwilling to participate any longer in the status quo.

C’mon lurker girrl, this is your cue! Lovin’ you, J

sunray wrote:

> Yeah I agree, actually I think women are perhaps more confused because of the natural inclination to want a situation in contrast to past practices. They feel a need to oppose social conditions as they were, without yet realizing that if we just invert the gender roles/responsibilities/etc. then we’ll get the same social problems but in reverse. Thus we get women wanting to be like men, instead of wanting to be like women. How confusing for everyone!

Ain’t it the truth! What can be done about it, I wonder?

> It does seem to me though, like we’re past the height of the feminist reationary men hating syndrome. But still, part of coming back into balance again is for us men to continue to share our songs of loneliness and abuse, to provoke women into reacting to us, not as women used to, or as men wannabes, but as real women who will eventually need real men. I am convinced that we won’t be able to truly change society, until we stand together again as men and women, united in family bonds, and unwilling to participate any longer in the status quo.

Yeah, it seems like the peak of the anti-man rage was a couple of years ago. Now we are all sitting around, licking our wounds and wondering what happened to us. It IS time for men to share their feelings of hurt with women...we are humans, too! We have deep and strong feelings! We’ve been conditioned to hide our hearts and our emotions, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have hearts and emotions. I challenge us all to be open, to cry, to share feelings, to admit our weaknesses and mistakes, to unconditionally love ourselves, to pat ourselves on the back, to laugh, to be who we are! LOVE LOVE LOVE! -Mark

J, I have to say to you a great big “AHO!” I agree, I think men and women are different, and I think that alot of women do tend to think that acting like men will help the situation. Not true, they are not being themselves. Men and women are different for a reason--because we complement each other. Now, let me clarify before I have a bunch of sisters and brothers jump on me and pelt me with chunks of food.... LOL! Just kidding! Well,, I feel that a woman can be feminine, can be nurturing while she is speaking her mind, living as freely as any man. I also feel a man can be strong while he sensitive and nurturing. I think there is a fine line between the genders. Otherwise, why would we have so many doggone people who are somewhere in between (i.e., bisexuals, gay men, lesbians, etc.)?

J wrote:

> Yeah I agree, actually I think women are perhaps more confused because of the natural inclination to want a situation in contrast to past practices

I would have to disagree with that. Of course, I do live in the southeast where women are generally more socially constricted. (Gee, and I live here... LOL!) I think what happened is that there has been a backlash, mainly in the 70’s and 80’s, of feminism. Then, there was the “sensitive guy” movement, that in my opinion, went a little too far, as well. I mean, I don’t personally like a whiny, clingy man. Of course, that is just my opinion, and they really are like assholes...

Butterfly Bill said:

> I’ve had groups of women in cars honk horns at me, wave, yell things like “Hi, baby cakes, how’s it going?”, and do other antics you would normally think only truck drivers do to young girls.

Yes, women acting like some of the moronic men out there, thinking that somehow that behavior, which is typically applied to males, will balance things out. Gee, that seems to make things even more confusing, just like J. said. Yuck, ick, and double ick! I don’t think it’s right for any person to behave in such a cheapening manner. It almost cheapens the experience of beauty. Sure, I might stare a bit at what I think is an attractive man, but I certainly do not shout out demeaning remarks at him. I don’t like them being shouted at me. I tell you what’s worse... when a man talks to your tits. That is utterly dehumanizing. I am a human being, I have eyes to look into, just like when those men would look into a man’s eyes they are talking to. (I almost used “you” there, but like I always say, it’s not nice to generalize.) Do me a favor, you guys... When you see a man talking to a woman’s tits, go up to him (unless he’s a big, mean redneck, don’t want y’all being hurt) and tell him to speak to her like she is a human being, please! Ah, enough going off for now. I love you, family....

Peace and light,
Julia

AwiNo...@aol.com

Maddy,

Although I do agree with you about whiners, I disagree with you when you say that women do not seek abusive men. They do, subconsciously, and it is because of patterns they have been taught, whether in childhood or in adulthood. And I do not consider the discussion stereotypical, as most of us were using the term "most." I know I was, anyway. I think generalizations are just plain wrong. I think us all talking about the crazy relations between the sexes on here is very productive. Some of us might be learning something. I know I did!

Lovin Y'all,
Julia

AwiNo...@aol.com

> Maddy,
> Although I do agree with you about whiners, I disagree with you when you say that women do not seek abusive men. They do, subconsciously,

Hi, Julia -

I met a man and fell very much in love with him never knowing that he was abusive until I was pregnant with our child. You can bet that even subconsciously I wasn't looking for that - having had absolutely *no* experience with abuse anywhere in my past. Ya just never know! I mean - who or what type partner you might find yourself with.

But the rest I am in agreement with you on. I've enjoyed reading your words. And I'm getting a kick out of hearing from the men - some of the really hearfelt posts. This learning is pretty darn cool.

Holly

Smmmmmmmooooooooocccchhhhhh on the cheek and HUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGG right back at ya Kriss!

Lovin Y'all,
Julia

> Hey J! Maybe you're right...I don't know, but I have the feeling that we are getting so few replys because of one of the following reasons:
> 1. Women are just as confused about all this shit as men are. They don't know what to say because they don't "get it" either.

I'm sure some are. Not me.

> 2. Perhaps women who have read our words think we are just a bunch of whining crybabies

Yes.

> who should just be quiet about our pain.

No.

> 3. Maybe women reading our words really do hate men and they enjoy seeing us hurt.

Hardly. This is one place that paranoia doesn't help.

> 4. Maybe most of the women on this newsgroup already have their man and don't feel any desire to help us out.

I do. I still want to help.

> 5. Maybe some of our sisters have something to say, but don't want to "sell out" their feminist sisters.

Hardly. But then, I don't hang with feminist sisters.

> 6. Maybe it's something else altogether.

Bingo! I haven't been posting much in the last several months. I didn't even check into agr for about four months. (When my baby was born!) I wasn't going to say anything about this at first because it looked like a bitch session. Nothing wrong with that. A lement cast into the electronic sea that gets back an affermation can take out some of the pain (ie, it's fun to bitch). But you guys are getting serius, so I'll throw out some comments. But not in this post. I got a lot to say. I'll say it under "The Golden Road"

> That's the problem when you don't get any feedback...the imagination runs wild and you tend to assume the worst.

Oh so true.

> By the way, I vote for option 1 above.
> -Mark (still open to female feedback/input/advice/wisdom)

Good choice. Love your posts, Mark.

Montana Crystal

Dear Sis Holly,

I was sorry to hear that you had to put up with an abusive lover. I went through a similar experience, but I have a childhood that does include abuse, unlike you. My grandfather was very abusive toward my aunt, mother, my sisters, and me (and who knows who else?). And you are right, one never knows exactly what one ends up with when one starts a relationship. You know what, though? I have discovered that by learning how a guy treats and feels about his mother is often a big indicator. : )

Love and light and a big hug,
Julia

AwiNo...@aol.com

> Dear Sis Holly,
> I was sorry to hear that you had to put up with an abusive lover. I went through a similar experience, but I have a childhood that does include abuse, unlike you. My grandfather was very abusive toward my aunt, mother, my sisters, and me (and who knows who else?). And you are right, one never knows exactly what one ends up with when one starts a relationship. You know what, though? I have discovered that by learning how a guy treats and feels about his mother is often a big indicator. : )

Well, hey now, Sis Julia!

Yeah, I have learned a lot from then. I thought I was wise in the ways of the world, of men & women - ha! He was a beautiful beautiful soul but he had been so damaged. He learned how to hide it and to use it to his "advantage" but had I known more about this issue of abuse I guess I would have seen the red flags - as it was, what I did know about him just brought out the BIG caretaker in me and aroused much compassion! And now I can't help feeling that he was a bearer of lessons meant to be learned - both good and bad!! And ain't that life?! Never could I bear him ill will . . . He was as much the victim and in need of particular lessons as much as anyone. Sometimes even, I'm glad I didn't recognize the signs as I'm not sure, no matter how terrifying life with my husband sometimes was, there was also much beauty and love and incredible experiences and the feeling that it was meant to be. I'm just grateful I knew when to get the hell out! And we stayed close (from a distance) until the day he died.

I thank you for your caring and your wonderful hug! And I give you a warm hug right back!!!

Love'n'Light!!!
Holly

From: "Randall,Holly-SEA" <RA...@perkinscoie.com>

> > Love and light and a big hug
> > Julia
> Well, hey now, Sis Julia!

I love you both !
That is some life talk...
I feel that is just what, taking advantage instead of sharing. I'd want to be sure I am only the second side, but for that be I'd have be fulfilled, or wise enough to fulfill on my own, or to fill satisfied anyway... It worked so far. Will it lighten, or move unto something else... How much dedicated, and how much cooperative ? Is my groung strong enough, can I make it better ? What you think ? Can you tell me please ?

(O gentleness is a clue no matter what... Flowing our energies together, in the same direction... So close together or not always ?).

With love,

Kriss

> I was sorry to hear that you had to put up with an abusive lover. I went through a similar experience, but I have a childhood that does include abuse, unlike you. My grandfather was very abusive toward my aunt, mother, my sisters, and me (and who knows who else?).
> Love and light and a big hug,
> Julia

Well that is something...

I dont know where or when it fits, but my mother, being polite is some being...

When I had problems with her, so did I with women...
And when we made our path back to each other so did I with women...
So for fact, may be...
But this does not goes to say:
1. Mothers always help out boy's with their mates...
2. Mothers-in-law is the coolest thing in the world.
3. and that good loving girls get along with their dads (or does it ?).

Can somebody tell me where do we go from here ?
(But for sure this a totally new extension of that love and gender thread...)...

O, I must add this: You can choose your friends, but not your family...

With lots of love, and above all barriers I suppose !

Kriss

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