Vision Council part 4

Vision Council – part 4

In a message dated 97-11-27 06:20:57 EST, you write:

> So what can be done about vision council?

get a basket of buttons, put them in the center of the circle-if you partake you are part of the vision council, if you don’t, take a hike------------------s

(Montana Crystal)

> These things would easily done in a climate of respect. But the problem people lack respect. How do we unite without organizing?

Yeah, yeah, I know... of course we could do this if EVERYBODY did it with respect and sincere desire, but you and I know EVERYBODY ain’t gonna be like this when you are starting with 10,000 people who start with only belly buttons in common. You can’t run hundreds of people like you can a kitchen council of 10.

Thank the martial gods that Shanti Sena didn’t start out like this. Those guys at least admitted that in our utopia we’re gonna have some of the same problems as in ol’ Babs, even tho Love and the Spirit are among us. If Vision Council is where you can show someone the worst of Rainbow, a few typical Shanti Sena movies is where I would try to show someone the best. They’re working a lot of things out, and much better than the police department.

English parliamentary procedure - along with American congressional procedures and Robert’s Rules of Order - starts with the assumption that there is going to be conflict and disrespect, and proceeds to try to channel these happenings into orderly channels that are less destructive. We need to recognize problems, and come up with established and commonly understood ways to deal with them. We don’t have to bang gavels and call on the sergeant at arms - we can find gentler and more effective ways as Shanti Sena has. But just letting everyone babble on at will while thinking the Spirit is guiding it is just gonna keep council a big lie, and have more people joining the underground networks that defy it.

(Arrowstar)

> I and many others here in this area have said similar things. Yet how should this reorganization best be approached?...
> ...Maybe we could have a separate council at the next ‘98 National that we could call a Reorganization (for change)Council,...

Here’s the lady dog about a consensus system where one person has the power to block against any number of people no matter how large. We can have a reorganization council, we can come up with a new constitution that would do the founding fathers proud - but I guarantee you, there’s gonna be more than one die hard traditionalist who’s gonna block consensus.

To institute a new system the basic revolutionary act will have to take place - large numbers of people together defying the established authority and doing something their new way, all the time being ready for any reaction from that establishment. I gotta warn all you, there may be another split gathering, there may be another Zeus taking off with a flock, there may be a permanent division into Orthodox and Reform. Or I may be wrong, and there will be an outpouring of support congealing like yogurt once we’ve sold the 100th monkey on it. Whatever the outcome, it ain’t gonna be smooth and easy all the way.

-Butterfly Bill

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hundreth monkey here---as the bard would say--much ado about nothing--having been involved with the family some little while, i personally think the present system, while slow and often bizzarre, works okay--consider that when an issue of true importance, like last year when a council was held concerning the possible mass incursion of federal personnel to attempt removal of everyone from the site, is held, folks become respectful and attentive to each other. while the name vision council is missleading, as this council has little to do with anyones vision, it eventually does achieve its goal of picking a direction for the gathering to follow. i know that in this time of rapid rapid everything we would all like to streamline the method, eliminate the cry of heartsongs, eliminate the politicial squabbling of regionalism, but the truth is these are all a part of human nature and isn’t likely to go away. is it unfair that somefolks have time constrictions that force them to leave before a council finally ends? perhaps, but then if something is that important to someone personally, i think they would arrange a way to stay until a decision is reached--------------s

X9...@aol.com wrote:

<SNIP>

> is it unfair that somefolks have time constrictions that force them to leave before a council finally ends? perhaps, but then if something is that important to someone personally, i think they would arrange a way to stay until a decision is reached--------------s

Much more family would particiate if Vision Council Started on July 1ish. Wouldn’t you agree. This change would also offer the hope of announcing the next National homecoming by the 4th for all present to hear.

BTW @ NERF T-council MUCH, MUCH discussion of the near future (‘99 or 2000) EAST COAST NATIONAL was had.

Possible sites worthy of scouting that were discussed included:

1. the NEW Federal land in (N)? Carolina on the inland waterway - this was supposedly from the trade for not cutting down another forest.

2. West Virginia

3. PA - Allegheny Nat’l Forest. Not the previous Nat’l site but another that has been scouted.

4. 3-4 hours outside of Wash. D.C (Virginia?)

With this past summers heated discussion of an E.coast National... w/cooperation from experienced scouts and energy from new(er) scouts we can get behind this concept of a near future E.Coast gathering cant we?

Never? .....Maybe?.....Please?

With the proper planning maps...scouting....etc. V-council could believe this dream too!

In the light,
Glenn

You’re full of crap x989. The process of Vision Council sucks as we know it. When did you spend more than 10 minutes at Visionless Council? Your addiction to chaos is well known so of course you think the process is fine. The stupid 3-10 day marathon of empty rhetoric needs to change to something reasonable and goal oriented.

In the Villaage heartsong would go on always and vision council would reach consensus rapidly and deliciously.

My love for the Rainbow Family does not extend to egotistic empty headed blithering foolishness which is traditionally what I have seen at Visionless Council (your phrase x989).

LUV
BULL

PS Perhaps F&B should be applied to long councils?

MORPHUN = UNMORPH
UNMORPH = NUFORM
PHUN + PHUN = MMORPHUN
PHUN - CLOTHES = WAY MORPHUN

WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP!

At 10:26 AM 12/4/97 -0500, X9...@aol.com wrote:

> hundreth monkey here---as the bard would say--much ado about nothing--having been involved with the family some little while, i personally think the present system, while slow and often bizzarre, works okay-

You call three people making decision of vision council “working ok”? I won’t go into all the examples I could give as to why vision council IS NOT working ok, but it’s pretty obvious it ain’t.

> consider that when an issue of true importance, like last year when a council was held concerning the possible mass incursion of federal personnel to attempt removal of everyone from the site, is held, folks become respectful and attentive to each other.

Picking where we go the next year IS NOT of true importance?

And how we treat/respect each other in vision council (or any council) IS NOT important?

> while the name vision council is misleading, as this council has little to do with anyone’s vision, it eventually does achieve its goal of picking a direction for the gathering to follow.

And at what cost?

> i know that in this time of rapid rapid everything we would all like to streamline the method, eliminate the cry of heartsongs, eliminate the politicial squabbling of regionalism, but the truth is these are all a part of human nature and isn’t likely to go away.

You miss the point.

True… heartsongs, political squabbling of regionalism and other such things are part of human nature, but to “eliminate” them is not the goal.

Getting rid of the “extra ordinary” level of disrespect, the dominance of a few wingnuts to disrupt the whole process, the lack of any understanding of “how” vision council should be held, and the lack of family to “DO” anything about it… IS

To say it is all “human nature” and there is nothing we can do to fix things is not only a copout but bullshit!

Well this I agree with. We will never be able to meet everybody’s time schedule.

But regardless if someone brought this up as a point, it really has nothing to do with current problems (or solutions)

I was disappointed at your other post in response to this thread and was going to comment but decided to just let it go (no big deal)…but this post only further helps present chaos to continue and demands comment. I was hoping some folks out there were concerned enough to make an attempt to change things, though I’m starting to just think “fuck it” since nobody seems to care enough to try and DO something about it.

So much for walking your talk.

You of all people bubba, I’m surprised. Thought you knew better (and still think so, but I’m starting to wonder)

Once again, disappointed (and fed up) with our family politics and family’s lack of being willing to do anything to improve our present problems. To bad we put niceness (read chickenshit) & lip service over standing up for things (guess we ain’t so different from Babylon & it’s political correctness crap as we think).

….. oh well guess it’s time to join the other blissninny’s and enjoy the gathering/party while it still has something to enjoy…... BJ

> My love for the Rainbow Family does not extend to egotistic empty headed blithering foolishness which is traditionally what I have seen at Visionless Council (your phrase x989).

hey now!

well, name calling might be considered counterproductive by some of us, as well.

i still think there are ways to focalize without organizing... and i do get with the concept that when people rob us of our psychic energy we are allowing it to happen, conciously or otherwise. there is no excuse for tolerance if it is destructive to our vision, or maybe i mean that “tolerance” as an ideal is great, but in reality, we should not tolerate every bunch of crap that anyone tries to throw our way. if we do, we’re enabling, just like the dysfunctional family that enables so many of our brothers and sisters to drink themselves senseless at the nationals, but we’ve been there, and had that discussion...

the most productive councils i’ve ever participated in were definetely focalized, and egomaniacs and attention hogs were not given the feather, or focus. Period. or, rather, i should say they were given the feather once. and care was taken that all present had equal time to speak and or sing their heartsongs. it is often the quietest among us who have listened, and therefore heard and recognized the heart of an issue. Unfortunately, there are a few who choose to talk, rather than listen, and they only detract from the process.

There is a solution, it is unity.

and courage.

we all have it,

let’s use it!

then maybe some of us who have refused to get caught up in the bullsh-t of the process will return to the nationals, and be a part of the process again.

she who hasn’t counciled except with Katuah and Piedmont family since the debacle of Vermont in 91 (held most appropriately in the circus tent!),

maddy clare

> 1. the NEW Federal land in (N)? Carolina on the inland waterway - this was supposedly from the trade for not cutting down another forest.
> 2. West Virginia
> 3. PA - Allegheny Nat’l Forest. Not the previous Nat’l site but another that has been scouted.
> 4. 3-4 hours outside of Wash. D.C (Virginia?)

hey now!

and, if i thought there were a chance of the gathering at last coming back east, i would attend Arizona.

and, i would certainly help scout the N.Carolina site, i already have more than a passing aquaintance with the state, for sure, for sure.

love,
maddy clare

In a message dated 97-12-04 16:18:55 EST, you write:

> Much more family would particiate if Vision Council Started on July 1ish.
> Wouldn’t you agree.

actually,no---most folks i know are really busy the first till the seventh helping to make the gathering go smoothly, they would not have time to sit in a council all day long

there is no problem with an east coast gathering, except a lack of site---my suggestion would be to come to vision council with a topo of any proposed eastern site-------------------------s

Madelyn Powell wrote:

> and, if i thought there were a chance of the gathering at last coming back east, i would attend Arizona.
> and, i would certainly help scout the N.Carolina site, i already have more than a passing aquaintance with the state, for sure, for sure.

North Carolina, eh? heehee we’d love to have you!!! love, Moonchild

In a message dated 97-12-05 04:56:10 EST, you write:

> a chance of the gathering at last coming back east, i would attend Arizona.

the only problem with going east is lack of a site---bring a topo with a site and some photo’s and it will carry heavy weight--the east has been scouted much, but hey things can be missed--i think myself that there might be somewhere in northern georgia, but since i don’t go east of the big river any more, i’ll never find it

also i think the east might be fine for 2000--as a big gathering on new years is being considered in calif.-------------------------s

In a message dated 97-12-05 09:02:57 EST, you write:

> PS Perhaps F&B should be applied to long councils?

perhaps--i’ve never been able to decide what is needed most at a gathering, a flame thrower or a tow truck--------------s

X989 wrote:

> actually,no---most folks i know are really busy the first till the seventh helping to make the gathering go smoothly, they would not have time to sit in a council all day long

This same arguement would be true for cleanup ....I know it really starts when we arrive home but in reality those V-council folks “sitting in council all day” aren’t doing clean up either.

If we get it right early on we would’nt have to sit all day long. It seems that only those that stay longer than the 10 days I alotted this past year got to participate in V-council. Lets move it up and meet early in the day.

Can only V-council attendees can change the date of V-council? ie: move it up? Although we can’t consense anything online here, how many online folks would like V-council earlier than JULY 7?

> there is no problem with an east coast gathering, except a lack of site

There never was an East Coast gathering was there? Of course there was.

> ---my suggestion would be to come to vision council with a topo of any proposed eastern site-------------------------s

We will provide the requisite homework.

Since all historical sites have had different parking, water, firewood, main meadow size, biting insects, etc., what would be good enough for YOU to get behind an E.coast National?

Maybe it could be better asked “If the details are all addressed and they could work, WOULD YOU get behind an E. Coast national?

An East coast regional was discussed @ NERF T-council too. I’ll take that to another thread.

Glenn

well, look at last year-----on the first day of vision council, much to everyones surprise, arizona became the outstanding choice--no great hugh and cry was heard about the camp in general, so the assumption was made that arizona it would be--if anyone had a great objection they would have gone to council the next day and delt with it---as it turned out, it was just a matter of letting those few wing nuts have the stage for awhile---no one really cared what they had to say as they ended up talking to themselves and only one person (thank you Sarah) was needed hang out and make sure they didn’t change anything to radicially---my complant was they should have been putting their energy into clean-up instead of sitting on their asses in a circle---but as we all know, people who tend to sit in circles seem to do little else but sit in circles---as to this years vision council, the montana family has already asked (two years ago) for the family to come to montana in 1999, so it will be a farce again and eventually montana will be decided on---personally i think on the first day of council, the first person to speak should be someone from montana and they should immediately ask for concensus for montana1999 and cut all the bullshit---but as we know, that won’t happen and the heartsong and wingnut crew will hold the feather hostage for as many days as they can---solution? who knows----------------------s

In a message dated 97-12-04 16:18:55 EST, you write:

> > Much more family would particiate if Vision Council Started on July 1ish. Wouldn’t you agree.

In response X9...@aol.com (X989) Sailor wrote:

> actually,no---most folks i know are really busy the first till the seventh helping to make the gathering go smoothly, they would not have time to sit in a council all day long-------------------------s

That’s true, very sad but true!!! ~And~ because of that we are excluding those very family members from the council........that is why I suggested holding any consensus for the following day and posting the agenda at info, so they too can participate.....as it stands now there is nothing equal about our councils.....Lots of valid ideas and experienced input is lost because of this fact. We are missing a wealth of knowledge from these very folks. I don’t see where my post on it appeared so I’ll resend it.

The process we have now excludes a major part of our family from decision making. I have heard folks say, there are those that want it that way and will do all they can to make sure it remains in effect, so others won’t attend. That is a scary thought. IMHO Every effort should be made to insure participation by as many folks that want to, especially if their ideas differ. The more information available the better are choices in decision making.

There have been a number of times I would have liked to go but it’s just impossible if you are involved in anyway, in the day to day work of a gathering. Had I known that a certain issue was brought up for discussion/consensus then I would have had a choice. As it stands now, the only choice I have is to stop any work I might be doing and sit in council all day long.

One brother recently referred to it like this: “We have gatherers and we have the professional councilors!” Kind of a sad state of affairs for a family that claims “all are equal”, wouldn’t you say?

one love
Dragonfly

I tried to send this once but didn’t see it come through, so excuse please if it comes to you twice:

Hmmmmmm.......trying to pick up on this thread is a little hard after missing agr for awhile but from what i’ve seen i’d like to insert some loose change here....... (definitely not as dangerous as a loose cannon.)

i won’t even go into all of my thoughts on the subject. aren’t we relieved;) so skip to the chase of what i thought might be an idea to consider.....

due to the difficulty in many folks even getting to council, if they are involved in the care and feeding of family.......many just can’t sit around in council all day.

a]--nothing be consensed on when it is initially introduced at the time it is brought up, rather it would be listed for the following council to consider and posted at info so those who would be leaving a major work movie like kitchen,calm or supply could arrange to be present the at the time of the discussion/consensus

ex:
brother: i propose we consense to change our name to X-tribe

info: tomorrow in main council “name change to X-tribe”

**as it stands now professional councilors can just sit

in council from 1-7 making decisions some may not agree with but can not sit in council all day due to cooking or working the parking lot or calm.....they should be given the chance to participate in issues they feel are important, rather than sitting through ~all~ of the council

b]--when council is heldup by *one* individual blocker then it is up to that person to take aside three others from council circle to a side circle and try to persuade them to see the block as a real issue. if successful in convincing the three or even two of them, then they would return to bring their reasons for agreeing with the block or announce they were not convinced and one block should not stand in the way of rest of those in agreement.......possibly slowing irresponsible blocks

c]--main (heartsongs/changes) council 1-6 vision/site suggestions 7th (call for consensus on a site) site discussions 8-9 (can happen anytime from the ) site decision july 10th (7th-10th but must be decided) (by the end of the 10th------)

the idea here is to make sure all who would like to participate can even if they are working, it gives them the chance to see what’s up for the next day and attend if they have something to share........we are missing some valuable input by beautiful brothers and sisters who put so much energy into making sure the gathering is as great as possible! as it stands now our council system is exclusive and would even appear to be deliberately set up/kept that way to insure reduced participation by some folks.

the other part of the suggestion is too help focus on what really needs to be done in a timely and fair manner. it would also help reduce the hostage taking of a council, by the antics of one blocker.

just some random thoughts i’ve had over the years......i know i know “uh-oh there she goes thinking again!”

hugzzzz
Dragonfly

Nah...

DFLY- yr thots are always welcome- grandmother energy is sorely missed in the testosterone jungle... you go girl!!

love ya
Marc

These quotes are all BJ’s. There’s one paragraph I’m gonna quote out of his order, so it better fits my plan of presentation.

> It’s not that we intentionally disrespect each other so much as it is that when we circle to council, there is not a mutually agreed upon process/understanding for how that council will function.

Ain’t this the truth! So much time is taken up in arguments over whether we “can” or “can’t” do this or that by assorted people who have their own version of the rules. Everybody cites this or that precedent in a “consensus” that was reached at some council which apparently only that person was at. And there is, of course, no commonly agreed upon written source that everyone will accept.

> as with council process, there IS NOT a “one way” to do it. many many ways can work. ... None of these are the “right” answer (or wrong answer). There are many ways of doing the same thing,

But there are ways which work much more often than others, enough that they could be designated the “right” ways that we can default to until circumstances suggest others. I’ll give my “right” answers to your following questions:

> Will there be a facilitator this time?

With more than about 20 people, always

> Does the feather go around the circle to each person?

In a small (30 or less) group, yes. With more, no. Create some sort of train someone can get on, a list, a line, an inner circle - something where there is a clear idea of whose turn it is.

> Do we stay on one subject at a time or whatever the next person wants?

If there is a goal, a decision to be reached, definitely stay on subject. If it’s a brainstorming or heartsong type of session, let it flow.

> Does business go first? does heartsong? do we mix them?

No, we don’t mix them. It’s either business to be done, or pure research. There is certainly a place for a heartsong circle that precedes the business session.

> Do you get to talk as long as you want?

No.

> are you “timed”? do you talk as long as the circle implies “keep going”?

The bigger the circle, the more you are timed.

> Can someone comment to your words when spoken? or must they wait till their turn?

In business sessions, yes to the first. When your turn comes around, the subject may have strayed far from what you wanted to address, and it is tedious to all to have to keep reintroducing. In research sessions, shut up and listen.

Other people have talked about announcing agendas at info. I say - do we even have to think about this? Every club in Babylon announces agendas in advance so they don’t have in-crowds pushing thru secret agreements behind the backs of the rank and file. And they don’t vote on anything if a quorum - a minimum amount of people - hasn’t shown up at the meeting.

> I have to repeat..... folks interested in actually making change in vision council need to step off to the side for awhile and talk with each other to keep this going to some kind of fruition. ... We need to do this with this vision council thread too, if we don’t want it to just dye out after everyone makes their “comments” right now then nothing happens and folks move on to the “next” subject.

I don’t understand why we have to do this off to the side. If it’s out here on the main floor, more people can see it, get interested, and join in. This subject has come up before since last Gathering. In Aug. and Sep. there was a thread of 30-40 posts, with Rob as a main actor talking about all the difficulties of scouting east. This present segment may slacken off, too - but it can revive again. I’d just let it flow and grow over the winter, then really troll tube it about May, trying then to come up with concrete proposals. Cabron, BJ! You’ve started a raging bonfire. Roger and I are gonna have to quit arguing about who gets the trolling crown and put it on your head.

In closing,

I see the present council process as something that came from some white people’s fantasies about how the Indians did it, mixed with the Quaker meeting idea that if we all sit around and open ourselves, the Spirit Itself will come and tell us the answer. Observation, however, has cast doubt on whether the Spirit is really talking thru lots of the fannyholes that stand up and ramble. If the Spirit talks like this, maybe I’ll have to be a satanist or an atheist.

Observation has also shown that, even when we try not to have leaders, they emerge anyway. Why is having a chairperson, facilitator, focalizer, guy keeping it together such mortal Rainbow sin?

And this newsgroup shows how many can express themselves better in writing, and how many can catch all that goes on when they can read things at their own times - and not only that, go back and review. Why is the spoken word regarded as the only legitimate one at Rainbow councils?

- Butterfly Bill

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Butterfly Bill wrote:

> > Do you get to talk as long as you want?
> No.

> > are you “timed”? do you talk as long as the circle implies “keep going”?
> The bigger the circle, the more you are timed.

The story i was always told about feather council was the point about Run-on Speakers. The tradition was that a speaker could hold the feather as long as they could “hold” the feather. Straight out, that is, parallel to the ground. After all, its only a feather, so differences in upper body strength don’t count.

When the speaker can no longer hold the feather (straight out), then they have to pass it. I always thought this was a wonderful way to give everyone an equal opportunity to speak their mind while keeping the demogogues to a minimum.

Also, the counciling guide that Wing put out a few years ago needs to be updated and given as much attention as Rap 107, 701, 420, etc. Is it on the Website or did Dragonfly repost it?

My .02

Marc

Butterfly Bill wrote:

> > Do you get to talk as long as you want?

plus BJ and others have had excellent comments that I’ve managed to get a quick look at. sorry snip and paste is a little difficult when emailing out of netscape: (

however, it has been suggested we keep the topic alive or it will fade away.....maybe it will and maybe it won’t but if everyone reading makes it a point to go to Main Council and make proposals from the get-go and make it simple.......like no consensus before posting to info the topic for consensus......we’ll have a start...... assign days for main council changes heartsong one time business another.....again simply stated and called for a consensus.....that’s another start. i know one year i was determined to participate but in the end just could not do it.....had i thought there would be folks ~really~ focused there, i might have gone.....as it was it just made my stomach turn and i didn’t go.

pc...@cyberramp.net (Starwatcher) wrote:

> When the speaker can no longer hold the feather (straight out), then they have to pass it.

i like that and it’s an idea that can be brought up.

> Also, the counciling guide that Wing put out a few years ago needs to be updated and given as much attention as Rap 107, 701, 420, etc. Is it on the Website or did Dragonfly repost it?
> My .02

chachachiiiiinggggggg

> Marc

love you: ) and I will be sending the MINI-MANUAL of COUNCIL along for your reading pleasure in a seperate post.

lotzaluvnhugzzzzzz
Dragonfly

In article <669pn5$27l$1...@gte2.gte.net>, Glenn Battin <cf...@gte.net> writes:

> Although we can’t consense anything online here, how many online folks would like V-council earlier than JULY 7?

You got my vote. I’ve always thought it should start on the 5th and be required to be over by the 7th.

Montana Crystal

Http://members.aol.com/BoomBdBoom/drums.html for musical instruments
We are not who we think we are. Argressive techniques of enlightenment can not harm who we really are, but they can be devistating to who we think we are.
Paraphrase of something Ram Dass said in lecture.

> > Although we can’t consense anything online here, how many online folks would like V-council earlier than JULY 7?
> You got my vote. I’ve always thought it should start on the 5th and be required to be over by the 7th.
> Montana Crystal

I am definitely with both you. So, that is a Yes vote from me. Thanks.

spring

...Randall,Holly-SEA <RA...@perkinscoie.com> wrote in article <348F2217.alt.gathering.rainbow@mssmtp.perkinscoie.com>...

> > You got my vote. I’ve always thought it should start on the 5th and be required to be over by the 7th.
> I am definitely with both you. So, that is a Yes vote from me. Thanks.

this is Plunker, Montana...actually, to me, Vision Council (all Council) all Ways starts on July 1, extends to the July 1, next year...every new year, to me, is when i get my vision adjusted...being Home on the First of July somehow all ways clears my eyes...rejuvenation and restoration (cleanup) all ways begins, morning of the Fifth of July....during the Gathering, if it all works correctly, Spring Council/Seed encampment through Flowering to the Lotus (Fourth), to the Folding of the Petals, Scattering - seeds and people.

Plunker wrote:

> actually, to me, Vision Council (all Council) all Ways starts on July 1, extends to the July 1, next year...every new year, to me, is when i get my vision adjusted...being Home on the First of July somehow all ways clears my eyes...rejuvenation and restoration (cleanup) all ways begins, morning of the Fifth of July....during the Gathering, if it all works correctly, Spring Council/Seed encampment through Flowering to the Lotus (Fourth), to the Folding of the Petals, Scattering - seeds and people.year, to me, is when i get my vision adjusted...being Home on the First of

How beautiful ! Thank you,
Flower Child

flurd

At 08:26 AM 12/7/97 PST, Butterfly Bill wrote:

> > BJ said,
> > I have to repeat..... folks interested in actually making change in vision council need to step off to the side for awhile and talk with each other to keep this going to some kind of fruition. ... We need to do this with this vision council thread too, if we don’t want it to just dye out after everyone makes their “comments” right now then nothing happens and folks move on to the “next” subject.
> I don’t understand why we have to do this off to the side. If it’s out here on the main floor, more people can see it, get interested, and join in. This subject has come up before since last Gathering. In Aug. and Sep. there was a thread of 30-40 posts, with Rob as a main actor talking about all the difficulties of scouting east. This present segment may slacken off, too - but it can revive again. I’d just let it flow and grow over the winter, then really troll tube it about May, trying then to come up with concrete proposals. Cabron, BJ! You’ve started a raging bonfire. Roger and I are gonna have to quit arguing about who gets the trolling crown and put it on your head.

OK OK OK! I take it all back. YOU are right! Won’t mention again about taking it “to the side”. See? I can change my tune when a good enough argument is presented : )

Thank you for your response, I thought you made an especially good point about letting it flow in the open for now and see what happens (always being able to “troll tube it” (?) in May). For the record though (one last time : ) , I just want to make sure you understand my meaning of “taking it to the side”. I didn’t mean something others couldn’t participate in as much as having a separate site like AGR where folks could dial it up anytime they wanted to add their comment or just to follow what others are saying. I don’t see this being anymore exclusionary or secret than AGR. All one would have to do is type in the “address” of the thread (newsgroup?) and check it out, Kinda like another AGR that one could even “subscribe” too and get the posts just like AGR. This really wouldn’t be any big deal and all could know about it. I just thought it would help keep a focus on the subject and all responses would be in one place for ALL to read/re-read at their choosing. Keeping it going on AGR is just harder for folks to follow all the responses, or go back and find previous ones, with all the other stuff posted.

I still think this makes more sense in trying to reach some conclusion to the subject and does not “exclude” anyone from participating in any way. But no one else seems to agree at this time so I humbly back off….. Know I’m just coming from a space of concern for wanting to see this subject go somewhere other than being another long discussion with no results as happens with many other subjects attempted in this space (hopefully I’m wrong about this assumption too)…… sorry maybe I’m needlessly worrying to much, but it’s all coming from a good space in my heart and just wanted you to understand.

Ok enough said about this, I agree with YOU lets keep it here on AGR for now’ but lets keep it going ok?

> I see the present council process as something that came from some white people’s fantasies about how the Indians did it, mixed with the Quaker meeting idea that if we all sit around and open ourselves, the Spirit Itself will come and tell us the answer. Observation, however, has cast doubt on whether the Spirit is really talking thru lots of the fannyholes that stand up and ramble. If the Spirit talks like this, maybe I’ll have to be a satanist or an atheist.

I won’t comment about my agreements to that, but it would be interesting if we tried the “American” approach to it. By that I mean we are the only (?) country that is based on ideological concepts of people living together vs. Being based on a “culture” (as most ALL other countries/peoples are) . As a people our country is very unique is this asspect (think about it). Regardless of what many have turned our country presently into, we ARE founded on the belief that ALL people are created equal and have a right to live in peace, without restriction from government, religion or culture. Taking “good” aspects from different cultures and applying them to a better way for all is a good thing as long as we don’t get hungup in someone else’s culture doing so.

And in that way, I think Rainbow and America (Babylon?) have much in common (including neither one “practicing” this concept in reality at the moment)

> Observation has also shown that, even when we try not to have leaders, they emerge anyway. Why is having a chairperson, facilitator, focalizer, guy keeping it together such mortal Rainbow sin?

HO!

Because like so many other of our traditions, folks have twisted the original meaning into something totally different. Leaders? Hell yes we have leaders! Many many leaders. How else does one think so much gets done? At any given gathering there are leaders. They play the roles of helping to get different functions done. Without all the folks who freely volunteer their energy little would get done, but without some folks taking on leadership roles, folks would be less willing to help out. After all who wants to be “incharge”? or take on the needed role of figuring out the details of things needing done or getting the supplies needed for all those volunteers who do it all? Most folks don’t mind helping out but few want that level of responsibility.

Does leaders mean the “same” people wear those shoes year after year? No! and that’s the true meaning of having no leaders. Unfortunately it’s meaning has become so twisted that most folks are not willing anymore to “take on” things because of being accused of trying to be a “leader” (ya right).

Then again people think when we say we have no “rules” that that means there are no rules. Sorry but there ARE rules. Coat them with whatever name you want but they do exist.

Does that mean we have rules that all must follow or be punished? Of course not.

But it doesn’t mean a free for all anarchy where anybody can do “whatever” they feel like regardless of the effect to the family as a whole either. Mutual respect, caring for needs of others in our family, helping out to make our gatherings function better and many other things ARE our rules and we have plenty of them. Don’t be afraid of rules for rules sake. Change the word to “understandings” or whatever else fits the pallet but lets stop thinking/saying we are not responsible as a “whole” for our family/gatherings. Yes we are all individuals and with the rights that go along with it. but we are also a “family”, and as a family there are some rules of how we should act as one.

Keep vigilance so as no unjust rules become the law of the land but don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater either!

And so goes with the misinterpretations of traditions….

> And this newsgroup shows how many can express themselves better in writing, and how many can catch all that goes on when they can read things at their own times - and not only that, go back and review. Why is the spoken word regarded as the only legitimate one at Rainbow councils?

HO!

Maybe someday we’ll take the effort that’s needed to see that the written word has merit too. Though keeping it “verbal” takes little effort and helps us from having to face/make important decisions, it sure doesn’t help much for understanding how some things work at our gatherings. Just look at the present chaos/confusion at our tribal councils, vision councils, and on and on. “verbal” traditions now only mean what the speaker wants them to mean and have been abused to the point where NO ONE really knows what our traditions are or aren’t anymore.

> - Butterfly Bill

And HO! To many other things you said in your post that I “snipped out”.

Thanks for all your input.

So I don’t make this another one of my usually looooong posts I will submit a “part 2” real soon about ideas for vision council.

Reaching for the light…………. BJ

BJ wrote:

> Maybe someday we’ll take the effort that’s needed to see that the written word has merit too. Though keeping it “verbal” takes little effort and helps us from having to face/make important decisions, it sure doesn’t help much for understanding how some things work at our gatherings. Just look at the present chaos/confusion at our tribal councils, vision councils, and on and on. “verbal” traditions now only mean what the speaker wants them to mean and have been abused to the point where NO ONE really knows what our traditions are or aren’t anymore.

I personally have embarked on a project to collect the consenses of this family and put them on paper. Not for the purpose of having a rule book, but for the purposes of sharing the ideas, issues and solutions we have agreed to over the years. I had copies of what I had collected to date at the Oregon gathering this year. Anyone who wants a copy of the latest version can send me a large SASE (10 x 12) with $2.00 postage on it and I’ll gladly give you a copy. I find it very scarey that 30 or 40 people spend days trying to work thru a problem just to have their solution disappear into thin air. If we start writing this stuff down, more people will know what’s going on, and we’ll be able to create better solutions in the future.

Love,
Karin

j...@efn.org (BJ) wrote:

> But no one else seems to agree at this time so I humbly back off.

well sorry i didn’t jump in sooner but i do agree with the idea and would welcome an email based list for a thread like we attempted in the past. letting it flow would be nice if it would flow but you are right it gets lost in the jumble......it can be reintroduced to the group again in may or at other intervals welcoming others to join in.

> just coming from a space of concern for wanting to see this subject go somewhere other than being another long discussion with no results

i appreciate that because i’m not getting agr in email.. too much bulk : o but i’d love to see it happening even thanks for pulling a focus on it.

> sorry maybe I’m needlessly worrying to much, but it’s all coming from a good space in my heart and just wanted you to understand.

i like that space: )

> Ok enough said about this, I agree with YOU lets keep it here on AGR for’ now.... but lets keep it going ok?

i’ll try to follow for now

> Taking “good” aspects from different cultures and applying them to a better way for all is a good thing as long as we don’t get hungup in someone else’s culture doing so.

HO!

> > Observation has also shown that, even when we try not to have leaders, they emerge anyway.

it’s just one of those things that comes with a herd instinct......pack instinct....many folks want to be lead and some want to be leaders......

>> Why is having a chairperson, facilitator, focalizer, guy keeping it together such mortal Rainbow sin?

it’s not but then this is where we probably part company on lines of thought.....i don’t see them as leaders per se.....i think *some* folks who want to be focalizers are really wanting to be leaders but certainly not all.

> Because like so many other of our traditions, folks have twisted the original meaning into something totally different. Leaders?

that’s true

> Hell yes we have leaders! Many many leaders.

we are all leaders of ourselves...

> How else does one think so much gets done?

it sure isn’t because some focalizer did it! i focalize but i sure couldn’t get it all done. it gets done because folks want it to happen and lead the way, not because i want it or i did it.

> At any given gathering there are leaders. They play the roles of helping to >get different functions done.

those aren’t leaders they’re family plugging in, they are labor, engineering, maintenance, radiofolks, water folks, healer, wood choppers, shitter diggers.... no leaders.......maybe teachers that can tell us the best possible way to accomplish something or students that can show new ways......

> Without all the folks who freely volunteer their energy little would get done, but without some folks taking on leadership roles, folks would be less willing to help out.

let’s try taking on teaching roles instead of ‘leading’ roles. folks aren’t less willing to help out, they just know less without others there to show them how it’s been done in he past.....what did/did not work and why.....so other folks can try it that way or make their own suggestions sorry i don’t buy this leader business, i’ve seen folks try and if they didn’t burn out they fell out!

> After all who wants to be “incharge”?

any egomaniac hanging around for their next fix

> or take on the needed role of figuring out the details of things needing done or getting the supplies needed for all those volunteers who do it all?

i don’t mind figuring it all out but that doesn’t make me a leader.......teacher maybe or a person who loves playing with puzzles and blocks.....but so do my grandchildren.......now there you are....and “they shall be led by a child”

> Most folks don’t mind helping out but few want >that level of responsibility.

what level of responsibility? i can tell you how to set up a kitchen among a number of other things and you may or may not do it that way....it’s up to you you are your own leader.....unless you are in Bliss and then you do it the OGRE’s way.......but the OGRE isn’t a leader either, just a bully; ] when it comes to saying wash your hands, food here, shovels there, dogs out, hold bowls away from serving container,etc.

> Does leaders mean the “same” people wear those shoes year after year? No! and that’s the true meaning of having no leaders. Unfortunately it’s meaning has become so twisted that most folks are not willing anymore to “take on” things because of being accused of trying to be >a “leader” (ya right).

that very well might be the case

> Then again people think when we say we have no “rules” that that means there are no rules. Sorry but there ARE rules. Coat them with whatever name you want but they do exist.
> Does that mean we have rules that all must follow or be punished? Of course not.

that’s a tricky yes and no answer if ever i came across one.....if you’ve got an open wound you won’t be punished in the kitchen but asked to take on a non-food handling task like wood chopping......if you harm a child i will punish you! no we about it! But it doesn’t mean a free for all anarchy where anybody can do “whatever”

> they feel like regardless of the effect to the family as a whole either.

unfortunately more than a bunch of folks think it is.

> Mutual respect, caring for needs of others in our family, helping out to >make our gatherings function better

rules have less impact on folks than mutual respect and love do towards shaping the way folks conduct themselves.

> and many other things ARE our rules and we have plenty of them. Don’t be afraid of rules for rules sake.

i’m not afraid of them at all.....just don’t like to invoke them.....i like to see folks coming together out of mutual respect but at the same time the OGRE has made grown men flyyyyyyyy.....when they just couldn’t quite understand the word NO......i don’t know or care which part they didn’t understand but after repeated attempts they got the picture when they went sailing out of the kitchen......the last thing that brother said to the OGRE was “i can do whatever i want here and there are no rules to stop me!” he was right there weren’t any rules to stop him.....we like to function out of love and respect, but if that fails....oh well......

> Change the word to “understandings” or whatever else fits the pallet but

that’ll work

> lets stop thinking/saying we are not responsible as a “whole” for our family/gatherings.

i don’t recall hearing that one......quite the opposite

> Yes we are all individuals and with the rights that go along with it. but we are also a “family”, and as a family there are some rules of how we should act as one.

guidelines maybe but i just don’t see it as a hard fast rule of the whole......respect.....understanding

> > - Butterfly Bill
> And HO! To many other things you said in your post that I “snipped out”.
> Thanks for all your input.

after getting to the bottom of this i wasn’t sure which one i was replying to but that’s probably becasue i jumped in the middle instead of following from the start.......i agree with some and don’t with others but appreciate all of the ideas coming out.

> So I don’t make this another one of my usually looooong posts I will submit a “part 2” real soon about ideas for vision council.

> Reaching for the light…………. BJ

go ahead and stretch: )

sorry if this isn’t clear....time to go to sleep.

love to all
Dragonfly

At 09:53 AM 12/13/97 GMT, Dragonfly wrote:

> well sorry i didn’t jump in sooner but i do agree with the idea and would welcome an email based list for a thread like we attempted in the past. letting it flow would be nice if it would flow but you are right it gets lost in the jumble......it can be reintroduced to the group again in may or at other intervals welcoming others to join in.
> > just coming from a space of concern for wanting to see this subject go somewhere other than being another long discussion with no results
> i appreciate that because i’m not getting agr in email.. too much bulk : o but i’d love to see it happening even thanks for pulling a focus on it.

Dragonfly,

Thanks for speaking up, now if we can get a couple more folks showing interest then maybe I’ll eat my last words about not bringing it up again : )

NOTE: I really would like to see it different than what we did last time. last time a “thread” was created (kinda like a private e-mail with everyone’s name on the cc: box. Though folks were welcome to be “added on” the list, it was somewhat private in the sense than anyone couldn’t just “tap into” it. And there was a reason for this, we were talking about reg issues and didn’t want “outside partys” looking in.

But a vision council topic should be open to everyone interested with little restrictions as possible as to how people can read what’s being said.

SO.... I suggest (if we do it at all) it be just another www. address like AGR is, that folks can dial up and either lurk or participate. The only difference would be it would have a particular focus (vision council). It would still be open to all and unmoderated. But ALL the discussions would be in one place for easy following and so folks could join in whenever they felt like it and still be able to “go back” and follow what people have been saying. I think this way addresses most all real concerns about anybody being excluded or things not being done in the “open” for all to see.

Well I hope I explained that right. Again lets see if any other folks seem interested... if not I’m willing to try it here, but don’t think it’s as good a way of doing it. (I have gotten one private e-mail asking to be included if a “side” discussion was created) Hey Butterfly Bill, can I change your opinion on this subject? :)

Robs going to talk to me about the possibilities of setting something up (incase folks do think this is a good idea)
============================================

Dragonfly,

I was expecting to get flack for what I said about “leaders” & “rules”. I’m glad you were the first to reply since your usually so gentle in your disagreements : )

I won’t comment to everything you said but did want to add this... I too do not like the words leaders or rules. And I was not suggesting that we adopt those words into our daily language. I also don’t think most of what you said and what I said was really all that different.

Call them leaders, teachers or whatever, the fact is folks do take on roles of leadership. Yes we tend to call them “focalizers” & “coordinators” but they are showing leadership in a way. And I didn’t mean to imply that “they” were the ones that got things done, just the opposite in fact. It is indeed all the “individuals” that make things happen. The focalizers/coordinators just help keep things focused, they are not the ones who actually “do” everything.

And lets face it, the folks that “take one” projects and stay committed to them regardless of personal time demanded to do so, are taking on a bigger commitment than someone who volunteers to “help” with that project for awhile. The guy who helps dig a shitter likely will go on too helping somewhere else after digging a shitter, the person coordinating the “shitter sean” stays on to help coordinate others who come to dig more shitters. They try and make sure needed tools & supplies are available for others to help out etc. That kind of commitment takes a lot more responsibility than most want to take on. In that sense, that coordinator is indeed being a “leader” at the moment (last year we called this person the “shitter king” : ), again these people are just helping to keep the focus going and by no means are responsible for all the work that’s done, that comes from the “individuals” as you mentioned.

Yes for sure we are ALL leaders, some just don’t practice it at times and others do. in that way it makes sense to me. This is different than saying someone is a /our leader.

As for rules; Again I don’t suggest folks use/except this word, but the fact is we do have rules (unspoken, undefined or otherwise)

I really was trying to say that when people “do” use these words they often do so to put people down for trying to get things done (“who the fuck are you? - we have no leaders, - or - “ hey man what’s your trip? there are no rules in rainbow we can do whatever we like”). I don’t know about you but I’ve heard this said many times before when someone was just trying to get something righteous done or tell someone how uncool what their doing is.

Of course there is a time when those expressions are needed (like when someone “is” trying to act like our boss or when someone tells someone else how to act (or not act) because “they” think it’s un-rainbow in some way)... but I wasn’t referring to those examples.

OK, before I dig a deeper grave for myself, I just wanted to make clear I wasn’t advocating the acceptance of those words just wanted to get folks to quit abusing there meaning. Personally I would prefer they seldom if ever are even used in our speech. I like “traditions or understandings” instead of rules I like “focalizers or coordinators” (or teachers) instead of leaders but somehow our bastardization of the original meaning of “rules & leaders” is somehow part responsible for less people wanting/willing to take many of the needed “focalizing” roles that are part of ANY gathering. To the point where “some” folks even talk negatively about “focalizers” (“yea they think they are just a bunch of leaders, ego trippers,etc”). I think this stems from misunderstandings of what is meant by leaders, etc.

We dance around this word all the time saying we don’t recognize “leaders” but then say things like “well some folks where different HATS at different times” (I say “shoes” often :)

Fact is; any given gathering has many generic functions that our the responsibilities of us all (parking, welcomehome, food supply,shitters, trash, water, firewood and so one). True these only get done by the combined effort of the “individuals”, but someone(s) need to “temporarily” wear the shoes of coordinators for these various functions if they are to happen in the best way possible. This makes those folks leaders in a way at that particular moment (hat wearers? shoe fillers?cordinators? etc.). this doesn’t make them OUR leaders nor give them any power claim to those functions. They are simply dedicating more of there personal time to that project than most others (hopefully someone else will fill those shoes (hats) next time.

The only leaders “I” think we don’t have is the kind that are our “leaders”, folks that “speak” for us all. Folks that think they have more influence, say so, or power than other rainbows.

These are the folks that give leadership a bad name.

Well once again I’m probably not saying what I mean in a clear enough way, oh well.

Just goes to show you how touchy the words “leaders” & “rules” are in our family

........ BJ

> SO.... I suggest (if we do it at all) it be just another www. address like AGR is, that folks can dial up and either lurk or participate. The only difference would be it would have a particular focus (vision council).

If the “Subject re:” heading conventions could be a little more focused and stable *that* would be a big help...we could even filter what we wanted more efficiently.

Sky

At 10:14 PM 12/13/97 -0600, Sky wrote:

> If the “Subject re:” heading conventions could be a little more focused and stable *that* would be a big help...we could even filter what we wanted more efficiently.

I agree, that would be very helpful, but don’t see how it could happen. I think it’s strictly up to us all to keep to the point of the thread but this seldom happens. Someone comments to a comment of a thread then next thing you know several subjects are being talked about under the same thread. And being the anarchists that we are, how do you get folks to follow a certain protocal (and remember we are an unmoderated newsgroup).

The problem you bring up is another reason besides just the other threads that space things out (and maybe the best reason).

I know some folks can seperate their threads in their mailboxes, but not everyone can.

Thats why I think a seperate channel is worth a try. Besides, how do we know it won’t work if we don’t try? we can always go back to how it is if it don’t work, no harm done.

AGR is an expirment, it wasn’t ment to be the “only” way for us rainbows to talk to each other.

..... BJ

P.S. Thanks for your comment Sky, it shows some good thinking on your part.

Sky <pal...@cyberramp.net> wrote in article <021b01bd0846$b7dba500$10529ecf.alt.gathering.rainbow@palmoni>...

> If the “Subject re:” heading conventions could be a little more focused and stable *that* would be a big help...we could even filter what we wanted more efficiently.

i think it is great that this thread is still together...allowed me to go back and catchup alittle..... that definately helps....seems like any *seperate* conversation kinda detracts from availability....... if we just keep a copy in our mailbox, we can keep this available for others..... need to save whatever needs to be saved.... pass it on... seems like its gotta be a community effort ifn we wanna keep trak... but really, even if threads come and go, we can always come back to things.... sometimes this too helps the ideas evolve....as long as we keep to it we will further....PEACE....-su

From: BJ

> NOTE: I really would like to see it different than what we did last time. last time a “thread” was created (kinda like a private e-mail with everyone’s name on the cc: box. Though folks were welcome to be “added on” the list, it was somewhat private in the sense than anyone couldn’t just “tap into” it. And there was a reason for this, we were talking about reg issues and didn’t want “outside partys” looking in.

The main reason it was setup that way was cause it was easy. There was alot of resistance to talking about anything, the regs included, on a side list. So I did it as a simple “exploder” style, cause I didn’t really expect it to get much use, due to the major flame war that was going on. As I had figured, it only got 3 messages, and proved useless. So I was glad I hadn’t done the majordomo style, which is more work. Maybe my laziness became self- defeating, but oh well...

SO.... I suggest (if we do it at all) it be just another www. address like AGR is, that folks can dial up and either lurk or participate. The only

Dial up ? AGR isn’t a WWW address, it’s a majordomo mailing list, and a newsgroup. I can create another majordomo style list for side topics, of which Vision Council could be the first. I could also create a web based discusion list like flowerchild.com. Both of these take alittle time to setup, but they aren’t difficult. I would just like to be sure the effort isn’t wasted.

I may respond later to the focalizer part of this message, but I find that too many people don’t like the “responsibility” of focalizing. They’d rather be a bliss-ninny. A classic example are the folks that call up and gripe that there aren’t enough potlucks or drum jams in our area. I always reply, “Great! good luck, I’ll help you were I can”, and they always go “No, we want *you* to set it up”. When I explain that there are no “leaders”, and that it’s up to all of us to create the kind of regional family we want, they go “It’s too much work”. Sigh... We will always have “leaders” by default, as long as folks insist on being “followers”. I’ve always thought it was up to all of us, but that seems to be a minority opinion....

- rob -

To perhaps replace the despair some feel upon observing Rainbow councils, I would like to describe one of the places where I've seen consensus really work.

I was a member for one year and a hanger-on for three more at Shannon Farm Community, near Charlottesville in central Virginia. It was 30 or so houses on 400 or so acres of land that had previously been a real farm owned by a guy named Mr. Shannon (hence its name). The community didn't do any more agriculture other than individual's gardens - they had a wood kiln and cabinet shop on one side of the land where maybe a quarter of the membership worked, but most of the community commuted to jobs in Charlottesville or Nelson County. It was like a suburban development with some very strong building covenants, with a lot of de facto tho not official communal child rearing among the many members who had kids, lots of mutually traded help with building each other's houses, and regular social events where everyone in the community came. It had gone the whole evolution from early '70's radical hippie free love commune to village of hippies who had kids and were now going to bed before midnight, tho still not voting Republican. It was a place where I got to know a lot of people very fast, that I still carry many warm memories of.

They made decisions affecting the whole community at a gathering they called Monthly Meeting, which was on the first Saturday of every month in a large 2-story building they had added around the original farmhouse. It had a big living room with a ceiling as high as the roof rafters, with the second floor ending around it at railings. As you approached this room, you went thru a foyer with mailboxes to your back, and a huge bulletin board covering a whole wall facing you. Both of these physical placements played a part in the process.

Nothing could be discussed officially at a meeting unless it had been put on the agenda during the previous month. One person had to state it in writing, and put it up on the bulletin board. Then at least four other members had to sign it in support. If something came up orally at a meeting, it could be discussed - but not acted upon until the next meeting, after the whole proposal process had been begun again.

The bulletin board was where proposals started, and there were often extended discussions of meeting issues before they ever came to oral discussion. The board was very much like a Usenet newsgroup, people sometimes talked about off the wall things, put up funny jokes they had found, put up propaganda for their peculiar causes, announced some good thing that had happened. It was considered perfectly proper to add graffiti to other people's postings, and sometimes there were outright flame wars. I remember a vehement argument I had with another member that took place entirely on the board in writing - when we were talking neither of us mentioned it out of a desire to preserve politeness. An amazing amount of conversation goes on in writing in intentional communities, especially ones with lots of computers.

The mail all came to a single rural route mailbox at the entrance to the farm, and it was brought in and distributed - by whoever that day wanted their mail the baddest - to individual cubbyholes in the same room as the bulletin board. Everyone had to come to that room to get their mail, and the building was the first one you passed on the road coming in. As a result everybody stopped there at least once a day, talked to whomever else was there, and walked over to the bulletin board to catch up on the latest installment in the soap opera.

They had a probationary period of at least six months where a newbie was a provisional member, before that person became a full member. You had to get one third of the full membership to sign your petition to become a provisional member, then two thirds to become a full one. Only full members could block consensus, but prov's were allowed to speak in discussions and take part in straw votes.

The meeting was started at 1:00 Shannon time by one of the chairpersons. They had two chairpeople at every meeting, each of whom was an ordinary full member of the community. This duty was passed on to others regularly. No one was allowed to chair two meetings in succession, and - I can't remember exactly - there was a minimum of a few months between turns. Who were to be the next chairs was a regular item on the agenda, and they asked for volunteers. There often weren't exactly people fighting each other off for the privilege and the power - sometimes the sitting chairpeople had to plead and pander to get people to come forth.

One of the chairpersons was the M.C. for the meeting - who called it to order, brought up agenda items, called for straw votes, and sometimes finally called for consensus. The other person was called the "vibes chair" - that person's regular duty was to respond to people wanting to be put on the list to speak, put them on it, inform the other chairperson who was next on it - and all the time while doing this to watch people's faces and body language, and perhaps interrupt the planned order of the meeting to ask someone who appeared to be having a real hard time to speak. This chairperson was also the first to be the hardass if things started to get out of order.

When an issue was first raised, there was usually a period where anyone who wanted to express something talked, resembling very much a heartsong council, but with no wandering from the subject. You didn't have to talk if you didn't want to, and the order of speaking was determined by a list that the vibes chair kept. If you want to get on it, you put up your hand and waited for the chairperson to acknowledge you by a nod, a pointing of the finger, or other noiseless gesture. Someone talking too long would start to get polite suggestions from both of the chairthings to start wrapping things up. If that person didn't stop soon enough, the chair could order that person to stop. After a while the conducting chair would try to state some proposals based upon what was said, and ask for a straw vote. This was a simple raising of the hands by those in favor. If few raised their hands, the chair would suggest either tabling the discussion until next month, or propose having more discussion. The chair might even ask for another vote on that.

If only a few were against, the chair would ask each of the dissenters to state to the meeting their particular objections. After this round, there would be another straw vote, and if the dissenters were down to only one or two, the chair would call for consensus. Usually, by this time, few of the dissenters would block - but sometimes they did, and if that happened, the issue was tabled, and the proposal would have to be put up on the board etc. all over again. When someone did block, that person could usually expect some informal chastisement (sometimes called "getting all over one's case") at the potluck dinner that evening and for days after. There had grown a tradition of feeling that a block was something you did only when you absolutely couldn't live with something, like you might have to even leave the community.

There were some meetings where some strong emotions were expressed, but there was never any fight picking or people walking out in disgust. The meetings seldom lasted for more than five hours, and they were often over in less than three. Often action could be taken on as many as four or five proposals. There would be be a potluck supper that evening, with lots of good food and gemütlichheit. Anybody from Shannon Farm reading this is probably wondering with gaping mouth how their mouthly meetings with their pouting process could possibly be a shining example, but they would really know how good they've got it if they ever went to just one Rainbow Vision Council.

There are some disanalogies between Shannon Farm and Rainbow. They've got about 60 people, we've got ten thousand. They live with each other year in and year out, and don't want be living next door to ill will - we come together for two weeks and maybe never see each other until next year. They certainly don't let in anybody with a bellybutton, you have to win the good will of many people with your behavior before you can become a full member and join in with all the powers. But there are some things we could emulate, like the written part of the processes, the use of chairpeople, the placing of things on agendas, the use of straw voting, and the attitude of respect that comes from everyone feeling they can really play an effective part.

– Butterfly Bill

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In a message dated 97-12-14 04:04:33 EST, you write:

> Well once again I’m probably not saying what I mean in a clear enough way, oh well.

Just goes to show you how touchy the words “leaders” & “rules” are in our family

........ BJ

i can’t say that i have any ideas to add into the discussion BJ, Dragonfly....but i just wanna say for myself (and prob’ly more thanx to agr)that I hear what you’re sayin.......both of you!

peace ...Phoenyx

BJ wrote:

> Just goes to show you how touchy the words “leaders” & “rules” are in our family

and touchy they should be ...

they represent our fumbling attempts to handle power in a novel, different, and hopefully fairer & more balanced way.

Handling power- deviding, distributing, dealing with... is a biggie.

We all know the 2 main ways babylon handles power- money and violence.

We think we need a better basis than that. Community, interdepedence, awareness, fairness... we think these should be the basis that are used when handling power. No wonder we are still trying new ways and disgarding what doesn’t work. N0 wonder we don’t have it down yet.

Marc

> We think we need a better basis than that. Community, interdepedence, awareness, fairness... we think these should be the basis that are used when handling power. No wonder we are still trying new ways and disgarding what doesn’t work. N0 wonder we don’t have it down yet.
> Marc

HO!

spring

On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:17:43 -0700 (MST) Rob Savoye <r...@cygnus.com> writes:

Not being tecnically computer savy, I was referring to it being just like the AGR account where folks could go to it when they wanted or be put on the mailing list. This way it wouldn’t be “unavailable” to anyone. Thanks for clearing up the tecnical end of what I was trying to say....

In article <199712141617.JAA05613.alt.gathering.rainbow@darkstar.cygnus.com>, r...@cygnus.com (Rob Savoye) writes:

> I may respond later to the focalizer part of this message, but I find that too many people don’t like the “responsibility” of focalizing. They’d rather be a bliss-ninny. A classic example are the folks that call up and gripe that there aren’t enough potlucks or drum jams in our area. I always reply, “Great! good luck, I’ll help you were I can”, and they always go “No, we want *you* to set it up”.

Having been the lone-voice-in-the-wilderness a few times I think the bliss ninny’s are dropping the ball for more than just lazyness. “It’s too much work” sometimes means “I’m afraid”. Who wan’ts to make the call to get together, find a place and time, get lots of “I’ll try to make it”, and then hang out alone? Somehow these things seem to work better when an “elder” puts it on. sigh.

Montana Crystal

Http://members.aol.com/BoomBdBoom/drums.html for musical instruments

Ho, Ho, Ho. Peace on earth and good will to the Kind. So glad we all agree.
;-)

In article <199712140540.VAA11153.alt.gathering.rainbow@wakko.efn.org>, j...@efn.org (BJ) writes:

> > If the “Subject re:” heading conventions could be a little more focused and stable *that* would be a big help...we could even filter what we wanted more efficiently.
> > I agree, that would be very helpful, but don’t see how it could happen. I think it’s strictly up to us all to keep to the point of the thread but this seldom happens. Someone comments to a comment of a thread then next thing you know several subjects are being talked about under the same thread. And being the anarchists that we are, how do you get folks to follow a certain protocal (and remember we are an unmoderated newsgroup).

If people made a habit of changing the header when the topic shifts (ex: Netiquite (was re: Vision Council) it would help with this problem. If the people who write more often do it often, the rest will catch on.

<snip>

> Thats why I think a seperate channel is worth a try. Besides, how do we know it won’t work if we don’t try? we can always go back to how it is if it don’t work, no harm done.
> AGR is an expirment, it wasn’t ment to be the “only” way for us rainbows to talk to each other.

I think setting up a second channel is a good idea. Can it be a little broader based than just for Vision Council? Can we use if for what we Wisconsin focalizers used to call Zing Councils? That’s where all the nuts and bults stuff gets done: scouting, mailing, bennifits, etc. Zing Councils always report back to the main council, giving a capsule of what all had been consensed to and giving main council a chance to discuss it. Sense all the people who had an opinion went to the Zing Councils that opened up main councils for heartsongs and more over all issues. It also ment we got to eat sooner ;^}. I think if we limit it to Vision Council it may not have enough energy/focus to keep it going. But if it’s business stuff, it’ll pull in bursts of enthusiasm. With regular updates to agr we will all feel connected but those who don’t want heartsongs don’t have to wade through them and those who aren’t all that big on the nuts and boltz but do want to know what is going on can feel included.

Just a thought.

Montana Crystal

Http://members.aol.com/BoomBdBoom/drums.html for musical instruments

Ho, Ho, Ho. Peace on earth and good will to the Kind. So glad we all agree.
;-)

j...@efn.org (BJ) wrote:

> Thanks for speaking up, now if we can get a couple more folks showing interest then maybe I’ll eat my last words about not bringing it up again : )

yeah i just jumped in and hope i didn’t end up with to much mud on my face or a shoe in my mouth, but it is a good thread and i’m interested in folks viewpoints on this topic.

> NOTE: I really would like to see it different than what we did last time.created)

i see your point about last time and would love to see an open form like a bulletin board that we can have up and anyone can go to.

> Robs going to talk to me about the possibilities of setting something up (incase folks do think this is a good idea)

there seem to be a few folks responding to the idea...

> Dragonfly,
> I was expecting to get flack for what I said about “leaders” & “rules”. I’m glad you were the first to reply since your usually so gentle in your disagreements : )

hmmmmm yep i’m into splitting hairs and semantics......don’t know how or when it happened......just one day it did.....at least i’m not as bad as the linguists i’ve heard speak, on the subject of language use and changes.

nor am i a purist but when words or phrases are used interchangeably it can cause problems. that’s when i start splitting hairs! gentle(?: )hmmmm

> I too do not like the words leaders or rules. And I was not suggesting that we adopt those words into our daily language. I also don’t think most of what you said and what I said was really all that different.

probably not; ]

> Call them leaders, teachers or whatever, the fact is folks do take on roles of leadership.

ok i confess i don’t like those terms and i didn’t expect my own response to them. yes, i do understand what you are saying and my dislike is probably a matter of culturalization; ) from rainbow(as has been mentioned)

......the term is to imply something official or controling......which just isn’t the case in rainbow, as evidenced by the responses.

> Yes we tend to call them “focalizers” & “coordinators” but they are showing leadership in a way.

focalize to me is passing on info or bringing something up for folks to focus on, if they wish to.....leader to me tells others what to do, without necessarily passing on any info.

> all the “individuals” that make things happen. The focalizers/coordinators just help keep things focused, they are not the ones who actually “do” everything.

yes we agree on that

> And lets face it, the folks that “take one” projects and stay committed to them regardless of personal time demanded to do so, are taking on a bigger commitment than someone who volunteers to “help” with that project for awhile.

right and someone who earns more money has more to share......

so if the person who has more experience, interest or where with all to do that then it’s because they have more in that area to share our strong brothers and sisters have more physical energy than i do to share

> stays on to help coordinate others who come to dig more shitters. They try and make sure needed tools & supplies are available for others to help out etc.

right and both family members are providing what they can, how they can

> That kind of commitment takes a lot more responsibility than most want to take on.

agree, they might not have the experience, time or interest and share something else(elbos grease, green energy)

> In that sense, that coordinator is indeed being a “leader” at the moment (last year we called this person the “shitter king” : ),

disagree
reasons:

1--coordinating helping things to flow smoothly, ie “toilet paper is runner needed to get more? digger crews have already gone to mainmeadow but crews still needed for calm and kid village. shovels are being kept in the tent and hand wash supplies over there.

2--leadership is telling folks what to do, ie troup leaders in battle team leaders on nursing units, cult leaders with koolaid fixations there isn’t a choice involved.

3--focalizer calls a focus to a wish/need or passes on info, something a leader doesn’t always do, ie folks were saying they wanted to circle, so how about sun in the park.....then they decide.......or letting a circle know the office or guide address changes that have happened. they do what they want with the info. again

> Yes for sure we are ALL leaders, some just don’t practice it at times and others do. in that way it makes sense to me. This is different than saying someone is a /our leader.

tada: ) again we agree

> I really was trying to say that when people “do” use these words they often do so to put people down for trying to get things done (“who the fuck are you? - we have no leaders, - or - “ hey man what’s your trip?

sad but true

> there are no rules in rainbow we can do whatever we like”). I don’t know about you but I’ve heard this said many times before when someone was just trying to get something righteous done or tell someone how uncool what their doing is.

oh yes didn’t you know those words are majic?

they turn lil’l ole grandmas into ogres; ) that can make grown men fly!

yep it’s true

> OK, before I dig a deeper grave for myself, I just wanted to make clear I wasn’t advocating the acceptance of those words just wanted to get folks to quit abusing there meaning.

HO! a couple of HO’S!!!

> Personally I would prefer they seldom if ever are even used in our speech.

there isn’t any place for them, unless there is an emergency that requires someone with the expertise to tell someone else what to do. yes i can become a team leader in a medical emergency depending on who else is present....but that really isn’t what we are talking about and i honestly can’t think of any other time in rainbow that word might come into use.

> I like “traditions or understandings” instead of rules

that’s because they are really what applies here....or guidelines

> I like “focalizers or coordinators” (or teachers) instead of leaders

because they really are not the same at all.

> Fact is; any given gathering has many generic functions that our the responsibilities of us all (parking, welcomehome, food supply,shitters, trash, water, firewood and so one). True these only get done by the combined effort of the “individuals”, but someone(s) need to “temporarily” wear the shoes of coordinators for these various functions if they are to happen in the best way possible. This makes those folks leaders in a way at that particular moment (hat wearers? shoe fillers?cordinators? etc.).

i would just repeat i disagree that they are the same here

> doesn’t make them OUR leaders nor give them any power claim to those functions. They are simply dedicating more of there personal time to that project than most others (hopefully someone else will fill those shoes (hats) next time.

that’s right i haven’t met a focalizer yet that I would call my leader other than myself; ] but i know and love a bunch of focalizer’s that help keep me informed or draw attention to something of interest like you are on this thread.........do you feel like a leader? yet you are just trying to call attention to something that is of interest and most folks agree needs attention. you are telling us to do this....you are bringing it up to see if it could be done by any of us.....

> The only leaders “I” think we don’t have is the kind that are our “leaders”, folks that “speak” for us all.

HO!

> Folks that think they have more influence, say so, or power than other rainbows.
> These are the folks that give leadership a bad name.

give focalizers a bad name

> Well once again I’m probably not saying what I mean in a clear enough way, oh well.

it’s a tricky word fest for sure, but you’re doin just fine and i was looking forward to reading over this again....i know i did some cuts here and there......there were some times when i wasn’t sure about things. i do believe we have different impressions of the word leader but feel the basically the same about all else....the words use(abuse), how stuff actually does happen and the responsibility involved, in addition to who actually gets it together.....it’s just that one word.

> Just goes to show you how touchy the words “leaders” & “rules” are in our family........ BJ

yep; ]

now i hope my post makes sense cause i’ve got to get going....

can you cc to me when you post bj?

Dragonfly

On 15 Dec 1997 23:15:41 GMT boomb...@aol.com (BoomBdBoom) writes:

> I think setting up a second channel is a good idea. Can it be a little broader based than just for Vision Council? Can we use if for what we Wisconsin focalizers used to call Zing Councils? That’s where all the nuts and bults stuff gets done: scouting, mailing, bennifits, etc. Zing Councils always report back to the main council, giving a capsule of what all had been consensed to and giving main council a chance to discuss it. Sense all the people who had an opinion went to the Zing Councils that opened up main councils for heartsongs and more over all issues. It also ment we got to eat sooner ;^}. I think if we limit it to Vision Council it may not have enough energy/focus to keep it going. But if it’s business stuff, it’ll pull in bursts of enthusiasm. With regular updates to agr we will all feel connected but those who don’t want heartsongs don’t have to wade through them and those who aren’t all that big on the nuts and boltz but do want to know what is going on can feel included.

I see your point and it makes sense. My idea was to help us be able to talk about “business” stuff in a way that could be more productive. If it worked, then maybe we could tackle other ideas too. But it might not be enough by itself to keep energy going as you say. I don’t know how it would/could be set up, but that was an end result I hoped for all along, many topics. if it was set up something like AGR is as to ease of access and openness to all, it just well might fly. Thanks for your thoughts on this. ... BJ

On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:27:46 -0500 Dragonfly <drag...@iac.net> writes:

> > Call them leaders, teachers or whatever, the fact is folks do take on roles of leadership.
> > ok i confess i don’t like those terms and i didn’t expect my own response to them. yes, i do understand what you are saying and my dislike is probably a matter of culturalization; ) from rainbow(as has been mentioned)

Ok, I admit “some” of my logic in trying to define the words “leaders” & “rules” is a bit “streched”

Mostly wanted to say those words get used in inappropriate ways at gatherings.

I agree with the points you agreed with me on.

I also agree with the points that you disagreed with me on. how’s that? : ) : ) : )

got it talked about anyway didn’t I ? : )

Love you sweet thing, ......... BJ

re: the side thread and finding the VC thread among all the other verbiage, and all that

You know, you can read agr. in Netscape.

Select “Window” in the header menu, then drag it to “Netscape News”.

When the news window opens, select “File” and drag it to “Add Newsgroup”. Then type in “alt.gathering.rainbow” in the box in the next window..

When the message list has come up, then click on the header box that says “Subject”, to sort by this (it defaults to sorting by date). Then scroll down to the V’s, and voila - there are all the posts under “Re: Vision Council” all together in a stack for you to peruse by clicking on the individual titles.

Don’t need no side thread to do this.

- Butterfly Bill

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Marc said,

> We all know the 2 main ways babylon handles power- money and violence. We think we need a better basis than that. Community, interdepedence, awareness, fairness... we think these should be the basis that are used when handling power.

And people are afraid of leaders because their only experience is with leaders who have used the ways of money and violence. They don’t know that leadership can also come from trust and respect, and it can be effected with gentleness and understanding.

Leader can mean sergeant, cop, judge - or it can mean teacher, guide, protector. The problem is not the leadership itself, the problem is how it is done.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:30:46 PST “Butterfly Bill” <butter...@hotmail.com> writes:

> And people are afraid of leaders because their only experience is with leaders who have used the ways of money and violence. They don’t know that leadership can also come form trust and respect, and it can be effected with gentleness and understanding.
> Leader can mean sergeant, cop, judge - or it can mean teacher, guide, protector. The problem is not the leadership itself, the problem is how it is done.

HO!

Man you said that beautifully.

Wish I had said “that”.

Sure glad you did.

......... BJ ( I’m going to keep that one on file : )

B J <rainbo...@juno.com> wrote in article <19971215.185740.3806.0.rainbowholic.alt.gathering.rainbow@juno.com>...

> My idea was to help us be able to talk about “business” stuff in a way that could be more productive. If it worked, then maybe we could tackle other ideas too. But it might not be enough by itself to keep energy going as you say. I don’t know how it would/could be set up, but that was an end result I hoped for all along, many topics. if it was set up something like AGR is as to ease of access and openness to all, it just well might fly.

you meean sumthin’ like alt.gathering.council or such?... -s

On 16 Dec 97 06:33:21 GMT “plunk” <peac...@bigsky.net> writes:

> you meean sumthin’ like alt.gathering.council or such?... -s

Exactly! ( or such :) .... BJ

It may be that the biggest problem we have is cross posting. I can easily see people in the arvc (alt.rainbow.vision.council ;-) ) side wanting to involve people from agr and visa versa.

I also see a probability of threads on arvc degenerating into the toilet ;^} fairly regularly.

Do we mind?

Montana Crystal

Http://members.aol.com/BoomBdBoom/drums.html for musical instruments
Ho, Ho, Ho. Peace on earth and good will to the Kind. So glad we all agree.
;-)

> > Leader can mean sergeant, cop, judge - or it can mean teacher, guide, protector. The problem is not the leadership itself, the problem is how it is done.
> > Butterfly Bill
> HO!
> Man you said that beautifully.
> Wish I had said “that”.

Dragonfly’s small change:

OK ok ok as in “lead by example; )”

i didn’t want to go there intentionally,(sorry bj.), because i was into defining the differences in the words, to show there are no-leaders. so i stayed clear of this last point.

however, i have to admit, when placed in situations in a babylon work setting, with that title attached, i’m quick to say to my students,

“When you must take the lead, do it by example not empty words.

True leadership is not just relaying orders to be followed, but setting the pace with examples. When the time comes and it will, you will have gained the respect and trust of the team you are leading.”

i have to agree with bj......whichever one of you said it

(marc or bill.) it was Very Well Put!

bj this is why we agree and disagree all at the same time. all of the examples were fairly close, but when it comes right down to it......

We All Agree there is no ONE leader but we are ALL leaders everyday, in everway that we do things....by Example

i just didn’t even want to touch on it because i was focused on the fact that, there really is a difference, in the definition of the three,

but i *do* see what you and bj are saying. it’s not totally lost on me, when i throw these definitions back out; ] focalizer--calls attention to something.......reporter organizer--keeps up with the flow of things...neatnick leader-----tells you what to do...............boss

we aren’t going to change the fact,common use in any living language, will create a change or add a meaning to a word over a period of time, to become more in tune with the accepted vernacular(sp),

ie;
when someone went crazy/wild the accepted slang for it was they went ‘psycho’. after that it was ‘balistic’. then it became ‘pschizoid’. later, we started hearing ‘agro’ and now the change is well on it’s way to becoming “postal”!

those natural churnings of any language can make things a might difficult at times......especially when the court has one definition they stick with. hence my heels are in the dirt again as i offer this difference to the darn gov’t--(hi folks wishing you a merry: )......who just like to lurk..... because they still haven’t figured it out either!

thanx bj for focalizing this thread, maybe someone will organize/coordinate now! I really don’t see any leaders in the thread; ]

** please put my email address in your cc field, when replying to this thread.

i have really enjoyed the participation here......especially the fresh voices of our family under 21 .......your voices are so sweet and it makes me feel so good to see you join right into these discussion: )

that’s for all you youngins and newbies; ).....you are great and i look forward to your words, as i do our older brothers and sisters, whose life experiences i like to learn from.

what a nice balance of “teachers” we have here!

hugzzzz
Dragonfly

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