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A meeting in San Francisco - part 2


From: William O'Leary (wole...@compu-savers.net)
Subject: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-07 10:21:19 PST

I finally post 6 names out of the 10 people involved with the NRMT and want to know what the next course of action is ??? what do people intend to do now that these names are posted ???

I think even a bigger problem other than these people are the fence sitters.

--
All the best for LESS !!!
Compu-Savers
http://www.compu-savers.net


From: SpunDance (SpunDa...@Alien.net)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-07 12:56:51 PST

www.spunoneproductions.com

"William O'Leary" <wole...@compu-savers.net> wrote in message news:y6YKb.14583$6B.14...@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...

> I finally post 6 names out of the 10 people involved with the NRMT and want to know what the next course of action is ??? what do people intend to do now that these names are posted ???
> I think even a bigger problem other than these people are the fence sitters.

WHO r THESE 10 PEOPLE AND WHY DID THEY DO THIS THING TO ME???????


From: William O'Leary (wole...@compu-savers.net)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-07 15:47:05 PST

SpunDance wrote:

> WHO r THESE 10 PEOPLE AND WHY DID THEY DO THIS THING TO ME???????

Well, since they got lost in another thread I'll post them again.

OK, you want names:

Barry Adams

Garrick Beck

Brian Michaels

Jeff Kline

John Buffalo

Badger

All of which will be present at this meeting.... let us not forget all their fence sitting supporters.

So, there you have names now what is the next planned course of action ???

--
All the best for LESS !!!
Compu-Savers
http://www.compu-savers.net


From: woodstock (thirdwavevisi...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-07 16:08:26 PST

"SpunDance" <SpunDa...@Alien.net> wrote in message news:io_Kb.4465$eH5.688665...@twister2.starband.net...

> "William O'Leary" <wole...@compu-savers.net> wrote in message news:y6YKb.14583$6B.14...@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...

> > I finally post 6 names out of the 10 people involved with the NRMT and want to know what the next course of action is ??? what do people intend to do now that these names are posted ???
...

> WHO r THESE 10 PEOPLE AND WHY DID THEY DO THIS THING TO ME???????

Hang in there Spundance- you're ahead of the norm right now in almost all of the aspects of the Vision. A Camp techie- I love it.

-woodstock-


From: SpunDance (SpunDa...@Alien.net)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-07 17:28:26 PST

"woodstock" <thirdwavevisi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:Db1Lb.49155$m83.19...@fed1read01...

> "SpunDance" <SpunDa...@Alien.net> wrote in message news:io_Kb.4465$eH5.688665...@twister2.starband.net...

> > WHO r THESE 10 PEOPLE AND WHY DID THEY DO THIS THING TO ME??????? www.spunoneproductions.com

> Hang in there Spundance- you're ahead of the norm right now in almost all of the aspects of the Vision. A Camp techie- I love it.
> -woodstock-
...

i GREW 50 CHICKENS, AND HOPE TO HAVE TURKEYS THIS SPRING, dONT EAT sTORE BOUGHT MEAT ANY MORE.i CAN GROW CHICKENS, DUCKS AND GEESE FOR 1/4 OF THE RETAIL STORE PRICE. SO 125 BIRDS TOTAL SO FAR. LOTS OF EGGS, AND BBQ, STILL HERE BRO.. ..PEACE OUT


From: Butterfly Bill (farfallab...@myappendixisp.com)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-07 20:06:35 PST

William O'Leary <wole...@compu-savers.net> wrote:

> So, there you have names now what is the next planned course of action ???

What do YOU want? A lynch mob?

-BB


From: jbird (jaberwockinmawkinb...@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-07 21:37:15 PST

William O'Leary <wole...@compu-savers.net> wrote in message news:<YT0Lb.32380$IM3.13...@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...

> SpunDance wrote:

> > WHO r THESE 10 PEOPLE AND WHY DID THEY DO THIS THING TO ME???????

> Well, since they got lost in another thread I'll post them again.
...
> All of which will be present at this meeting.... let us not forget all their fence sitting supporters.
> So, there you have names now what is the next planned course of action ???

Hey, thanks for getting back onto something of more general substance. However agonizing and painful to deal with, I agree that this is no time for silence, and the fence sitters suck even more than the fanatical anti-freedom paper-cheif permit-loving gurus. Wasn't sure if this was more of your paranoia or the real deal. I'm thinking it's probably both, though I wish it were just the former. Anyway, bottom my rant here is some more interesting commentary reposted from another thread that I think is worth sharing here, in case folks missed it in the other thread. It sort of speaks for me, though I think Pinciple should know that that may be the exception rather than the rule--no pun intended. Like you and I, Bill, Pinciple and I disagree and much. But, not on the permit issue.

To detail my own position, perhaps in distinction to other pro-freedom patriots who detest the gathering being reduced to having to obtain permission and liability insurance and other horrors like incorporation and capitalistic ventures necessary raise funds for insurance and pay-per-use scams on our publicly owned land, let me add that I see NO POINT in any further meetings with any fs agents. Painstaking efforts have been made for years, and since this permit scam got cranked up a few notches during recent years, to no avail. Even when fs meetings are glossed over as "access to resource expertise," I propose NO meetings to discuss anything other than a waiver of the permit scam. In lieu of getting sucked in, under the guise of "access to resource expertise," I say why not rely instead on the scientists and archeologists who go to gatherings (they've been blown off rather than nurtured), or the scientists and archeologists who work at nearby universities--you know, the ones who teach the fs experts?

As to this particular conservative Dept. of Ag. under-secretary's extensive comments that were posted here on agr earlier, the ones about how he endorses multi-use and local determination, I would think this meeting "could" instead have been a good opportunity to make the point that the gathering has a particularly strong and unique need NOT to have a permit in order achieve what the gathering means to acheive in the first place, and also in order to continue its orderly process of respecting the land (verified over decades by fs's own assessments)--especially since the ag under-secretary's formal positions are so anti-red-tape. I would think he might be sympathetic to THAT issue, and that THAT is gathering's REAL and present BIG "issue"--NO PERMITS. I would presume this under-secretary weilds the kind of influence that could lead to the permit being waived. It disappoints me to no end to think that, before THAT demand is met, any other topic would be discussed upon such a rare opportunity to have a would-be/could-be "public" meeting with such a high-up gov. official. This is not how one secures rights. People must demand them, with all reasonable arguments that can be made, and refuse to comply until demands are met. Nothing else works. Little paper games and dancing around with laws don't work. Only a persistent DEMAND will.

My last-chance hope: PLEASE, all outspoken, articulate, and/or bright minds who oppose this permit scam who are in a posisition to do so, GET THYSELF TO THIS MEETING (Principle, Miranda, Skye, Thunder, Marty, all ye yanke cali and oregon folks, get your asses over there and speak up--yours are among the brightest voices we got, imho--call in sick to work if ya gotta--just go), and appeal to this conservative ag-under-sec. who may actually be sympathetic. And, too, have your thoughts worked out rigorously, and be passionate and poetic, but level headed and reasonable--and listen. Please, don't let us be walked on. Surely, if this under-secretary's ear is won over, this "permit management team" of so-called "Rainbows" will take notice, and reconsider not trashing the rainbow gathering. You've got his thoughts laid out in writing on agr, so you can use them in your appeals to hold him to his own words.

Like Ginsberg, I'm "halucinating Arkansas." Ozarks? Short of these self-appointed paper-chief hero-wantabes coming out and "repenting," or simply resigning themselves to a lengthy absence from anything more than grunt work or blissing out, I've practically given-up on the 7/4 lineage, am inclined to think it's likely over, perhaps time to blow it off and move on and start fresh in the likeness with "regionals" over 7/4, perhaps even as Woody suggest, under different names.

According to fall council minutes, Great Lakes family tabled until spring council a decision on whether to do a 7/4/04 rainbow gathering in the great lakes or the west. At the fall WI regional, where was posted a notice of dissent toward the permit, where there were black armbands despite the fact that it was a traditional, intentionally unpermitted gathering, someone from Kickapoo kitchen informed me that Kickapoo is not going west, period, the reason offered having to do less with the prospect of a permit but more with a desire not to be a part of anything that involves this cabal of "self-appointed rulers of the rainbow" (though things change, and one person's interpretation doesn't speak for all). Given this rumor of Kickapoo, it makes me wonder Filipe's intent, considering he's now part of the Kickapoo clan. I've heard that other kitchens have already pledged not to go--permit or no permit.

Point being, these asshole paper-chiefs better understand this ain't like last year, since now everyone knows: There's much riding on the west coast not only NOT having a permit but also on family hearing from the now infamous collaborators that they have given-up their secret agendas and are willing to return the gathering to the family (ie, the public). I suspect by spring scouting, all will be determined as to whether regional circles around the country decide to blow-off the west coast and split-off, or go for the traditional solidarity. Any appearance that there even *might* be another permit scam going down will go far toward splitting up the gathering. If but for the sake of keeping it together, the hero-wanta-bes should give up the disrespectful agenda.

Tending to be a bit more on the radically and anarchistically conservative side of pro-freedom (ie, "anti-permit" for propagandists), I'd prefer that everyone just blow off the fs entirely and go do what's been done for decades under the banner of Rainbow (centuries besides as a natural course of human affairs), simply because folks feel like it--period. In other words, fuck 'em, their permits, and their gun totin' goons, too.

But, I digress--

More to the point,

lepro...@aol.com (LEproman) wrote in message news:<20040102222447.14277.00002...@mb-m28.aol.com>...

> I'm out of pocket and don't have time to play around on agr searching, so can someone tell me if the time,place and date of the meeting Garrick and Kline have set up with the USFS is public knowledge yet?
> Meeting Place a Secret &#8211; Why?

The FS never wants to deal with a "horde" of people, just a few "representatives," who will be "reasonable," and for this meeting
...
purpose as discussing logistics for this summer's Annual Gathering. Yet its public portrayal has been quit different.

Read Zirk-Plunker: http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=3FF8D129.49FC%40earthlink.net&rnum=5

It is now believed that enough "invited" folks will attend. So more folks will now be allowed to attend. There are those who
...
Unbeknownst to the majority of Gatherer, with no public discussions at all.
Oh the web they are A weaving!


From: William O'Leary (wole...@compu-savers.net)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-08 00:28:39 PST

Butterfly Bill wrote:

> What do YOU want? A lynch mob?

You ned to ask those that wanted the names.... personally, I could care less since I will not be attending any futere USFS events.

What do "I" want you ask ??? for pholks not to sign permits.... but we all know that is not gonna happen.

--
All the best for LESS !!!
Compu-Savers
http://www.compu-savers.net


From: Sailor (x...@earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-08 07:29:27 PST

jbird wrote:

> In lieu of getting sucked in, under the guise of "access to resource expertise," I say why not rely instead on the scientists and archeologists who go to gatherings (they've been blown off rather than nurtured), or the scientists and archeologists who work at nearby universities--you know, the ones who teach the fs experts?

I agree whole heartedly with the idea that this meeting is exactly the place to bring up the permit issue -- and plan to do so. Those folks coming from out of state who didn't even attend TGC but want to act as "representatives" to stroke their own egos will be put on notice that NO ONE at TGC wants a permit signing this year and they need to go away and meddle somewhere else, like in Ocala.

However, as regards the concept of using our own resources to do environmental and historical assement for potential site, well, it just isn't practical. You have to understand that when scouting you may be looking at a site a day for 30 days or so until you get down to a list of 4 or 5. These last few may be eliminated if they contain some rare to going extinct flora or fauna species or some major native american/american historical site. They are remote locations mostly and there is no way to get professionals who know the areas, ect. on site fast enough. The USFS already has field personel familiar with most of its turf and can quickly reference any site. We don't need the negative PR that results from a Idaho salmon movie or a Wisc. town site movie. What we need is a good working relationship with the USFS without getting bogged down in the permit issue.


From: Sailor (x...@earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-08 07:31:15 PST

William O'Leary wrote:

> Well, since they got lost in another thread I'll post them again.
> OK, you want names:
> Barry Adams
...

You forgot Whistler Dave who is coming up from Fla. representing B.S. and the Ocala team.


From: Ayin (-ammitus...@excite.com)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-08 07:33:39 PST

William O'Leary <wole...@compu-savers.net> wrote in message news:<YT0Lb.32380$IM3.13...@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...

...

> So, there you have names now what is the next planned course of action ???

i'm still wondering what the alternative is. boycott the gatherings so no more gatherings? when a simultaneous alternative national gathering was suggested all hell broke loose so i'm assuming having more than 1 national gathering is a bad idea too. so someone please tell me what the choices are since boycotting gatherings disappears the event and an alternative gathering splits the family. i read a lot of bitching and i can agree that theres something to bitch about but how about some kind of pragmatic suggestions for a solution b/c i frankly dont have a clue what to do or what not to do. not sure that it will matter to much to me, personally, in the long run b/c if the national gatherings remain always in the west the national gatherings will be a thing of the past for me anyway. i have more survival oriented concerns to spend my money on but i'd still like to know what "we're" suppose to do about the permit issue just in case i'm ever able to go to a national gathering again someday. i go to the Ocala gathering whether permitted or not b/c it's my best chance to hang out with loving, like minded folks and i'm loathed to give that up for political paperwork reasons. if that makes me an evil fence sitter please provide some of kind of solution suggestion so that i may repent my evil fence sitting ways.


From: Sailor (x...@earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-08 07:55:43 PST

Ayin wrote:

...
political paperwork reasons. if that makes me an evil fence sitter please provide some of kind of solution suggestion so that i may repent my evil fence sitting ways.

All permits are granted for specific sites with well defined boundaries. My suggestion is to camp adjacent to the permitted area. This allows you to still "visit" your friends yet not compromise your beliefs, if you do in fact believe in the "right of the people to peaceable assembly."


From: William O'Leary (wole...@compu-savers.net)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-08 08:15:01 PST

Ayin wrote:

> i'm still wondering what the alternative is. boycott the gatherings so no more gatherings? when a simultaneous alternative national gathering was suggested all hell broke loose so i'm assuming having more than 1 national gathering is a bad idea too.

Having a National Gathering that is not where vision council reached consensus for is nor wrong or bad.... you will be told it is by those that want to be in control.

Hell, I'm not even attending and I am being to that I am wrong in this.... I am an individual (last I checked) and make choices for me and me alone.

If a regional group decides (like the ozarks, midwest, or mi-atlantic) they do not want to travel 2,000+ miles to attend yet another USFS event that is their choice.... if they want to hold a Gathering in any of those areas that is their choice.

The only ones that will say it is wrong are those that want to be leaders and in control.... and the best thing to to si show these people they are not leaders and not in control by not attneding their USFS sanctioned events.

Hell, I keep saying of pholks want to do something in the summer they can travel to Manchester Tennessee and go to Bonnaroo.

> so someone please tell me what the choices are since boycotting gatherings disappears the event and an alternative gathering splits the family.

I am not split.... are you split ??? you are an individual with individual choices to make.... why follow or conform to a group ???

I would say that anything that comes around that is not sanctioned by the USFS is a Rainbow Gathering and that which has a permit signed by self imposed leaders is the alternative.

The Ozark pholks most recently held a council and are still discussing scouting options for a National in their region.

> i read a lot of bitching and i can agree that theres something to bitch about but how about some kind of pragmatic suggestions for a solution b/c i frankly dont have a clue what to do or what not to do.

Here's the thing.... pholks are already working on it.... stay tuned..... there is still 6 months to go before anything is finalized.

You will be told time and agian that there are no leaders but as we now know there are those that wish to set themselves up as such and have been actively working towards those ends.... you area na individual and do not need to follow those people if you do not want to.

Hear's an idea.... where do you live ??? call a council.... discuss your feelings and ideas with local pholks and see if you can reach some sort of collective idea as to waht to do this summer.

> not sure that it will matter to much to me, personally, in the long run b/c if the national gatherings remain always in the west the national gatherings will be a thing of the past for me anyway.

Yup, as it will for many others.... but if you read this group you will find out that the leaders are already calling for Vermont in 2005.... mind you they are calling for this without benefit of council.... but they have already turned the coucnil process into a farce.

> i have more survival oriented concerns to spend my money on but i'd still like to know what "we're" suppose to do about the permit issue just in case i'm ever able to go to a national gathering again someday.

You might want to stay tuned to the Ozark regional page.... a National Gathering may be coming near you sooner than you think

> i go to the Ocala gathering whether permitted or not b/c it's my best chance to hang out with loving, like minded folks and i'm loathed to give that up for political paperwork reasons. if that makes me an evil fence sitter please provide some of kind of solution suggestion so that i may repent my evil fence sitting ways.

A fence sitter is one that vacillates between supporting tradition of not signing permits and supporting their boyfriends, husbands, girlfriends and their desire to be leaders instead of making up their own personal minds as to what the issue means to them.

Something a fence sitter might say to one that is opposed to a permit would be like "I feel where you are coming from.... BUT"


From: Carla (ca...@efn.org)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-08 08:52:27 PST

Ayin wrote:

> William O'Leary <wole...@compu-savers.net> wrote in message news:<YT0Lb.32380$IM3.13...@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>

> > SpunDance wrote:
> > > WHO r THESE 10 PEOPLE AND WHY DID THEY DO THIS THING TO ME???????
> > Well, since they got lost in another thread I'll post them again.
> > OK, you want names:

...
> evil fence sitter please provide some of kind of solution suggestion so that i may repent my evil fence sitting ways.

First of all, you should be aware that not all of the people on the above list have ever applied for a permit, nor will they ever do so (specifically, John Buffalo and Badjer). Anyone who thinks otherwise obviously doesn't know either person very well.

Second, be aware that the information currently being put out about this meeting, and about who does or does not support permits, are the opinions of some people and not necessarily accurate.

Third, one concrete thing everyone on this newsgroup can do ***RIGHT NOW*** is write their federal Senators and Congresspeople to request a change in policy regarding use of the National Forest. Ask for a specific policy change: 1) gatherings should be administered by resource and recreation management specialists and taken out of the hands of law enforcement. 2) the regulations should be changed so that a) no signature is required and b) events can be scheduled on some sort of "space reservation" basis in which the people arriving for set-up work out an operations plan with the recreation and resource specialists. This approach would answer all the legitimate concerns of the USDA, who is the parent body for the USFS. If they insisted on issuing a permit after the operating plan is hammered out, that's their perogative; but people shouldn't have to ask for permission--or pay--to use public land to assemble or to pray.

Finally, I totally agree with jbird that this is a golden opportunity to have a conversation with someone who could actually make a difference. Mark Rey showed up at the gathering last year, so he has some idea of what it is all about. With enough personal exchange of strong opinions counter to the people who advocate for compromise, I think he will get a clearer idea of a) that the resistance to permits is based on reason, not on knee-jerk opposition to authority and that b) the overwhelming majority of gatherers oppose a permit in any form. I think the most important thing for him to hear is that alternatives to a permit are, and always have been, available and *workable*.

I will be going to the meeting to voice that position, and I hope many others do, too.

The fact that some of the organizers have stated that there are restrictions on what subjects are acceptable at this meeting (supposedly--I don't know if this is accurate as no one has expressed this to me) is totally irrelevant, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to this meeting to talk about this summer's logistics, and I doubt that this is Mark Rey's prupose, either. I intend to speak my mind as to the need to change both the policy and the regulations. Unless someone duct-tapes my mouth closed, I don't think anyone will be able to prevent me from doing so.

Pressure on the USDA from your federal representatives can help get the message through. Get those letters going!!

Luv'n U,
Carla


From: Sailor (x...@earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-08 09:12:34 PST

Carla wrote:

...

Glad to hear you will be attending the meeting. You certainly seem much more prepared than some (myself included) to offer "alternatives" which will allow folks who believe in the "right to freedom of assembly" to attend gatherings without compromising themselves. I also agree that of the list of names of the "supposed" RMT, only 3 or 4 actually support signing a permit and are actively courting the USFS for this purpose. I also will actively support breeching the topic of the permit. That being said, I also hope time and conditions will allow for discussion with the CA. based USFS personel attending to address site issues and possibilities.


From: William O'Leary (wole...@compu-savers.net)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-08 09:21:50 PST

Carla wrote:

> First of all, you should be aware that not all of the people on the above list have ever applied for a permit, nor will they ever do so (specifically, John Buffalo and Badjer). Anyone who thinks otherwise obviously doesn't know either person very well.

Really, who applied for and signed a permit in Utah ??? and are they on the list ??? wake up Carla and get down off the fence.

> Second, be aware that the information currently being put out about this meeting, and about who does or does not support permits, are the opinions of some people and not necessarily accurate.

These people have been on the USFS list for almost 5 years now.... fence sitters just don't like to think that their friends could sink to such levels

> Third, one concrete thing everyone on this newsgroup can do ***RIGHT NOW*** is write their federal Senators and Congresspeople to request a change in policy regarding use of the National Forest.

And this will do what ??? seeing as how Congress did not pass this regulation they ahve no control over it.

> Ask for a specific policy change:

Of who ??? the Senate ??? they had no hand in the creation of this regulation

> 1) gatherings should be administered by resource and recreation management specialists and taken out of the hands of law enforcement.

OK, this I am in agreement of.... but all efforts are thwarted by those that would set themselves up as leaders.

> blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, I enjoy the view up here on the fence....blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

Hold on, here is the credo of the fence sitter....

What position are you gonna take ??? pro or against permits ??? or will there be much fence sitting ???

> The fact that some of the organizers have stated that there are restrictions on what subjects are acceptable at this meeting (supposedly--I don't know if this is accurate as no one has expressed this to me) is totally irrelevant, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to this meeting to talk about this summer's logistics, and I doubt that this is Mark Rey's prupose,then this meeting is farce
> either. I intend to speak my mind as to the need to change both the policy and the regulations. Unless someone duct-tapes my mouth closed, I don't think anyone will be able to prevent me from doing so.

So, you are going there to take a hard line "sign no permits" stance ??? if this is true what brought you down off the fence ??? and do not be to sure that they will not attempt violence to get compliance

> Pressure on the USDA from your federal representatives can help get the message through. Get those letters going!!

Yeah, becuz as we all know such things have worked in the past.

--
All the best for LESS !!!
Compu-Savers
http://www.compu-savers.net


From: William O'Leary (wole...@compu-savers.net)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-08 10:12:00 PST

Sailor wrote:

> You forgot Whistler Dave who is coming up from Fla. representing B.S. and the Ocala team.

Thanx for the reminder.... I did not think that he would take the time to attend this upcoming meeting.

--
All the best for LESS !!!
Compu-Savers
http://www.compu-savers.net


From: jbird (jaberwockinmawkinb...@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-08 11:32:09 PST

Sailor <x...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3FFD76FE.1228B...@earthlink.net>...

> > In lieu of getting sucked in, under the guise of "access to resource expertise," I say why not rely instead on the scientists and archeologists who go to gatherings (they've been blown off rather than nurtured), or the scientists and archeologists who work at nearby universities--you know, the ones who teach the fs experts?

> I agree whole heartedly with the idea that this meeting is exactly the place to bring up the permit issue -- and plan to do so. Those folks coming from out of state who didn't even attend TGC but want to act as "representatives" to stroke their own egos will be put on notice that NO ONE at TGC wants a permit signing this year and they need to go away and meddle somewhere else, like in Ocala.
> However, as regards the concept of using our own resources to do environmental and historical assement for potential site, well, it just isn't practical. You have to understand that when scouting you may be looking at a site a day for 30 days or so until you get down to a list of 4 or 5. These last few may be eliminated if they contain some rare to going extinct flora or fauna species or some major native american/american historical site. They are remote locations mostly and there is no way to get professionals who know the areas, ect. on site fast enough.

They are already indexed in computer software, can be pin pointed and printed out on densiity maps. Some of this type of elimination can be done the preceeding year, freeing up time scouting. Animals, however, migrate faster, are a bit harder to pin point, so there you may have a bit of a point. Still, that can be typically estimated within bounds. That doesn't mean that there aren't new finds, however unlikely, but that can happen during any gathering. That the "family" scientists don't care to plug into scouting is the problem which I'm proposing be solved. I wouldn't expect the current state of gathering politics (egos, permit trips, etc) to make it any easier to gain their interest in makig a signficant contribution.


From: bodhi (The_Psychedelic_Tour...@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-08 11:50:30 PST

Ayin wrote in message:

> i'm still wondering what the alternative is. boycott the gatherings so no more gatherings?

Here's a pretty radical idea. Why not forget this permit nonsense and attend gatherings for their intended purpose: Spreading peace, feeding kids, and enjoying being a part of a spirtual happening. Too often we're unable to to see beyond our own ego, opinions, and ideas in order to realize what is truely important. Here's another radical idea: trusting your brother, who has spend years gaining your trust, in trying to work out a solution to tough problems.

> when a simultaneous alternative national gathering was suggested all hell broke loose so i'm assuming having more than 1 national gathering is a bad idea too.

One of the reasons i attend an Annual is to meet friends i wouldn't normally meet the rest of the year. Like my Hawaii friends. Now it would be rather silly to be at one gathering when friends you'd like to meet are at another one. Just because of some political differences i'm not going to have the pleasure of seeing you around a fire?? Also, this is a moment in history when we need to show the government that no matter our differences we are united in spirit. United in Spirit - has a nice ring to it, eh??

> so someone please tell me what the choices are since boycotting gatherings disappears the event and an alternative gathering splits the family.

Attend the Annual Gathering of the Tribes in California with love in your heart and a cup, bowl, and spoon, and have a good time. Pretty simple, eh??

> i read a lot of bitching and i can agree that theres something to bitch about but how about some kind of pragmatic suggestions for a solution b/c i frankly dont have a clue what to do or what not to do.

The folks who disagree with the permit signing don't have much of an alternative besides boycotting, alternate Annuals, or confrontation with Law Enforcement. Understand that some of the smartest minds in the Rainbow Family have been trying to come up with a solution. Until the folks who disagree with the permit come up with a viable solution,i'll continue to support those who are trying to ensure the survival of the Rainbow Family - and right now it looks like Garrick and company - rightly or wrongly - are trying to achieve that.

> not sure that it will matter to much to me, personally, in the long run b/c if the national gatherings remain always in the west the national gatherings will be a thing of the past for me anyway.

Say it's not so! How else are you gonna be able to taste my homemade gooooy "scooby snacks"(with 3 different kinds of sinful chocolate and marshmellows) unless you come by my camp one night at the Annual?

> i have more survival oriented concerns to spend my money on but i'd still like to know what "we're" suppose to do about the permit issue just in case i'm ever able to go to a national gathering again someday.

Sit back, make some popcorn, and watch the movie. What else?

> i go to the Ocala gathering whether permitted or not b/c it's my best chance to hang out with loving, like minded folks and i'm loathed to give that up for political paperwork reasons. if that makes me an evil fence sitter please provide some of kind of solution suggestion so that i may repent my evil fence sitting ways.

Hey, my evil fence sitting ass is getting ****Cold***** up here in the City (it's 20 degrees here) so don't be surprised to see my evil fence sitting self sitting on a log next to yours in Ocala.

Don't let all this bluster around here get you down. Did you ever hear Plunker tell the tale of the first rainbow gathering? How the governor of Colorado closed down all the National Parks in the state in order to prevent these long haired kids from attending?? Well, Plunker was there. So was Garrick and most of the folks dealing with this permit mess. i haven't seen Plunker, Buffalo John, or Badger in suits, so i don't worry.

namaste;
bodhi


From: William O'Leary (wole...@compu-savers.net)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-08 12:16:33 PST

bodhi wrote:

> Here's a pretty radical idea. Why not forget this permit nonsense and attend gatherings for their intended purpose: Spreading peace, feeding kids, and enjoying being a part of a spirtual happening.

Hmmm, so now there is an intended purpose to attending a "gathering" is this intended purpose written down anywhere other than in your own words ??? was there a council consensus on this intended purpose ??? if so when was this council held ???

> Too often we're unable to to see beyond our own ego, opinions, and ideas in order to realize what is truely important.

What is truly right important is retaining ones freedoms

> Here's another radical idea: trusting your brother, who has spend years gaining your trust, in trying to work out a solution to tough problems.

Trust the guy who says in one post "I am 100% against permits" and then in the next sentance says "But I saked this person to sign one"

Here, let me give you a hug brother.... what ??? pay no attention to the knife in your back.

> One of the reasons i attend an Annual is to meet friends i wouldn't normally meet the rest of the year.

Really, remind the pholks on this group when the last time you were at a National ??? correct me if I am wrong but it was Idaho 2001.

> Like my Hawaii friends.

Names, I want names of these supposed friends.... see how that works ??? you demand names of me and I demand names of you.

> Now it would be rather silly to be at one gathering when friends you'd like to meet are at another one.

No it wouldn't.... it means those friends have made their choice and you have made yours.... it just so happens that the 2 choices are not the same.

Does that make one person right and the other wrong for what they chose to do ??? I think not.

> Just because of some political differences i'm not going to have the pleasure of seeing you around a fire??

Your choice.

> Also, this is a moment in history when we need to show the government that no matter our differences we are united in spirit. United in Spirit - has a nice ring to it, eh??

So, you would demand that people go against what they believe in jsut so you can see them ??? Hmmm, how selfish is that ???

> Attend the USFS event in California with love in your heart and a cup, bowl, and spoon, and have a good time. Pretty simple, eh??

OR, get in touch with the Ozarks pholks and support their efforts.... by doing this you support the free assembly that once was known as the National Gathering of the Tribes.

> The folks who disagree with the permit signing don't have much of an alternative besides boycotting, alternate Annuals, or confrontation with Law Enforcement.

Which if someone wants to involve themselves in is their personal choice

> Understand that some of the smartest minds in the Rainbow Family have been trying to come up with a solution.

And the only thing they can come up with is to sign your rights away without your permission and say that they are doing it in your best interest

> Unti the folks who disagree with the permit come up with a viable solution,

Viable Solution: hold the National Gathering of the Tribes elsewhere... say like in the Ozarks

> i'll continue to support those who are trying to ensure the survival of the Rainbow Family

You will support teh subversion of the rights of others against their will

> - and right now it looks like Garrick and company - rightly or wrongly - are trying to achieve that.

Achieve = sign another permit like in Utah.... Oh, but that's right you were not in Utah were you ???

> Say it's not so! How else are you gonna be able to taste my homemade gooooy "scooby snacks"(with 3 different kinds of sinful chocolate and marshmellows) unless you come by my camp one night at the Annual?

Hey, come to Bonnaroo and I will promise to cook up some of my famous 6 alarm Texas Style chili !!!! guaranteed to have you sitting on ice blocks half way through the Grateful Deads set.

> Sit back, make some popcorn, and watch the movie. What else?

Hey, come to Bonnaroo and I'll even give you a deal on a Tie-dye !!! pick a color any color

> Don't let all this bluster around here get you down. Did you ever hear Plunker tell the tale of the first rainbow gathering? How the governor of Colorado closed down all the National Parks in the state in orde to prevent these long haired kids from attending??

Have you ever read the bullshit Plunker posted saying "I am 100% against permits"..... and then in the very next sentance say "But, I am asking this person to sign one".

Yeah, with logic like that who needs drugs.

> Well, Plunker was there. So was Garrick and most of the folks dealing with this permit mess.

Dealing = signing permits.... Quoting Plunker in Spring Clown Show in Utah "I started this and I can end it".... Hmmm, really now.

> i haven't seen Plunker, Buffalo John, or Badger in suits, so i don't worry.

They don't wear uniforms..... they are undercovers

> namaste;

And the joke continues

--
All the best for LESS !!!
Compu-Savers
http://www.compu-savers.net


From: Principle (matte...@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-08 13:08:30 PST

Sailor <x...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3FFD76FE.1228B...@earthlink.net>...

> > In lieu of getting sucked in, under the guise of "access to resource expertise," I say why not rely instead on the scientists and

...
The USFS already has field personel familiar with most of its turf and can quickly reference any site. We don't need the negative PR that results from a Idaho salmon movie or a Wisc. town site movie. What we need is a good working relationship with the USFS without getting bogged down in the permit issue.

I agree about a good working relationship with FS and in particular FS Resource Folks, but your promoting or giving credence to FS propaganda is counter productive.

The Idaho Salmon issue was a farce, and it was the actions and efforts of Gatherers who protected said salmon and their habitat Not the FS riding their horses through the creek and along the sensitive stream banks or the FS sucking water out of the stream for dust abetment in the area of the harassment station.

The FS did not even identify the real problem regarding the salmon in hopes that we would screw things up, I'm sure.

As for the "Town Site" in Michigan; The FS's own environmental study, finished weeks before the Gathering, for this very area claimed no significant archaeological site present and OKed the site area for logging.

As one of the local towns folk's sign hung on his automobile for their 4th of July parade said, "There are more artifacts in this vehicle then on the whole of the Chote Gathering Site.


From: Sanity-Clause (Sanity-Cla...@worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-08 18:19:13 PST

Sailor wrote:

> All permits are granted for specific sites with well defined boundaries. My suggestion is to camp adjacent to the permitted area. This allows you to still "visit" your friends

Go visiting and get tagged as a member of the "Group" mark my words....

Sanity


From: Karin Zirk (kz...@earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-08 21:53:54 PST

Carla wrote:

<<<STUFF DELETED>>

> I will be going to the meeting to voice that position, and I hope many others do, too.
> The fact that some of the organizers have stated that there are restrictions on what subjects are acceptable at this meeting (supposedly--I don't know if this is accurate as no one has expressed this to me) is totally irrelevant, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to this meeting to talk about this summer's logistics, and I doubt that this is Mark Rey's prupose, either. I intend to speak my mind as to the need to change both the policy and the regulations. Unless someone duct-tapes my mouth closed, I don't think anyone will be able to prevent me from doing so.
> Pressure on the USDA from your federal representatives can help get the message through. Get those letters going!!
> Luv'n U,
> Carla

If they duct tape you, they'll have to duct tape me too because I got a mouth on me.

Karin


From: jbird (jaberwockinmawkinb...@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: They ask for names.....
Date: 2004-01-09 00:33:27 PST

matte...@yahoo.com (Principle) wrote in message news:<f029cceb.0401081308.5895c...@posting.google.com>
...
> As one of the local towns folk's sign hung on his automobile for their 4th of July parade said, "There are more artifacts in this vehicle then on the whole of the Chote Gathering Site.

Choate (MI gathering site) was slated for logging well before the gathering, as you probably know. It was on their website, massive document about the proposal, but it disappeared about the time of the gathering. --bird

 

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