Rainbow Book Update

This is a thread about the peculiar difficulties one has when trying to sell books about Rainbow Gatherings to people who attend them – over the internet, as shown in this thread, but also in person at gatherings. One encounters many different views about the very idea of selling for money, and some of them can limit what marketing one can do.

I have gathered these posts from web pages produced by Google Advanced Groups Search. I have made no changes or corrections to anybody’s posts, with this exception: I have shortened quoted sections, since in some cases people quoted entire posts, including quotes of quotes therein, and to reproduce all of these would make this document way too long.

– Butterfly Bill

From: Michael Niman
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 20, 1999
Newsgroups: alt.gathering.rainbow

“People of the Rainbow; a Nomadic Utopia” (University of Tennessee Press) is out of stock in most places right now. The next printing is due out sometime late next month. Sorry. Check http://wings.buffalo.edu/~niman/rainbow.html for more info. There are currently 1,200 of them floating around and another 300 or so in libraries now so borrowing shouldn’t be too difficult.

> “People of the Rainbow; a Nomadic Utopia” (University of Tennessee Press) is out of stock in most places right now. The next printing is due out sometime late next month.

1. pretty relevant and on topic
2. educational (mind expanding)
3. religious topics have everybelly burnt out
4. books are better than discussing religion
5. doesen’t mention a price
6. objections not worth posting
7. subject looks boring
8. people too busy composing more religious flame
9. universties not associated with greed
10. just was not obnoxious

From: x9...@aol.com
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 21, 1999

In a message dated 02/20/1999 9:07:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, ca...@efn.org writes:

Because he is doing it very tactfully, no price listed, no attempted hustle. Just maybe a little proud boasting that it is going into a second printing. Whole different style than the buy my land in Hi. or buy my T-shirts. Sort of like the purple gang posting about a r-bow party at the Wetlands. ----- s

From: Michael Cardinal
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 21, 1999

> Because he is doing it very tactfully, no price listed, no attempted hustle. Just maybe a little proud boasting that it is going into a second printing.

i do and did after his initial *umpteenth* post about it....in fact i’ve found his repeated adds to be offensive but i’m just one in a million;)

no one else seemed to care though, {shrug} shaking head. i guess it’s just that one person’s junk is another person’s treasure.

in general, once i see repeated advertising of a someone’s commercial enterprise, by any poster even if “rainbowesque”, i tend to not read that person at all, after that. daniel and caleb are the most recent example, of ones i just loose interest in.

not that they aren’t kind (i don’t know them) or that their effort is not an honorable or a worthwhile one....just tired of the ads....it’s a big part of why i don’t care for tv and radio.

this is also the reason i do not post info on tim’s book. his repeat of ads have left me with the feeling, of being beaten over the head with it....

i read agr to hear from my family and *do* understand anyone’s desire to inform us, of their latest venture *once* or in a sig file, at the end. the repeated blatant sales pitches are a turn-off, to me though. the same is true for the resultant arguments and defenses of them.

i also give up after awhile, if a poster continues to pop on with only listing of some url’s. i check back on their posts every once and a while to see if things have changed though.)

i really appreciate the efforts of activists to keep us informed of pressing and latebreaking issues(enviro/socio/politico/economical,etc) but ultimately, it was the volume of these and sales pitches that got me to unsubscribe from agr.

i look forward to reading my brothers and sisters thoughts. i even enjoy learning what their enterprising efforts are, once.)

i like seeing healthy and provocative discussions of sprituality but really don’t like having anyone’s bible “thumped” at me...evangelism, of any kind, is a turn off to me.

there are so many neat things everyone has to share here (poems, heartsongs, stories, tech and mechanicall stuff, visions) that reading about commercial trips detracts from them......so i go looking for those things and skip over posts that may contain ads.

i would rather come to an uncensored space like agr, than for it to be a moderated ng. if that means wading thru the get rich quick schemes, the porn ads and latest marketing junk mail, to get to what interests me personally, then so be it. i don’t care for the alternative at all, censorship:(

netiquettewise, a simple note when somebody is launching an enterprise for fun or profit and where to find it is enough, like abadaba’s newly revised website.

he got his message out and that was that. he didn’t beat us over the head with it. the same can be said of some recent and new regional websites....they just announced them for us and that was it.

bottom line, there is a price for freedom;) freedom from censorship gets you the all of the spectrum the good, the bad and the ugly.

to email me drop the “o” from dragnfly
and just change the @Bliss.not to---->@one.net

From: rea...@givepeaceachance.co
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 21, 1999

> i do and did after his initial *umpteenth* post about it....in fact i’ve found his repeated adds to be offensive but i’m just one in a million;)
> no one else seemed to care though, {shrug} shaking head. i guess it’s just that one person’s junk is another person’s treasure.

Making and enforcing “roolz” is rarely as clear cut as it might first seem, particularly in a case such as usenet where it’s more clear that, as users, we’re both legislating against ourselves as well as in “protection” of ourselves.

In another newsgroup I read, mail order vendors of specifically related items sometimes post “ads” for their web sites. My take is that the other readers consider this as valuable information and I know that I do. There have been cases where a couple of the vendors have posted 3 or 4 messages in a row purporting that the answer to posted questions could be found on their site rather than answering in the group. That crossed *my* line.

Ads for RF books in a.g.r don’t offend me and if they did I’d kill file the poster. BTW, I found “People of the Rainbow: A Nomadic Utopia” to be interesting reading if taken as one man’s point of view. I think it reflects Michael Niman’s own expectations far more than he’d like us to believe.

http://members.tripod.com/~rationalone/
“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away”
______________________________
Get your free personalized email address at
http://www.MyOwnEmail.com

From: Wandering Halibut
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 22, 1999

HMMMMM, yep, that sounds pretty money grubbing to me. Down with capitalist libraries!

Wandering Halibut wrote in message <2072-36D...@newsd-101.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...

> Notice how he mentions it is in Libraries???
> HMMMMM, yep, that sounds pretty money grubbing to me. Down with capitalist libraries!

Why are you against libraries??? Are you against this outlet to the very important skill of reading??? Libraries is where you can get books to read without buying the books - what can be wrong with this???

As far as capitalism goes, IMHO it is the best system around, one where one benefits from one’s own work. Granted there are problems in the system, but I for one do not like the idea of redistribution of wealth. This sets up the situation that we now have were there are people out there not working and collecting a paycheck from Big Brother that I contribute to. This is money I desperately need for MY family.

From: Wandering Halibut
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 22, 1999

UM.....DUH
My previous reply to this thread was a JOKE.
Get It. Sorry.
Talk about a book. Talk about a man selling his book. Man said his book was in libraries. Libraries don’t sell the books. I was making a point that you very obviously missed.

From: sonsu...@aol.com
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 22, 1999

In a message dated 2/22/99 5:24:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, j...@ddaccess.com writes:

> Why are you against libraries??? Are you against this outlet to the very important skill of reading??? Libraries is where you can get books to read without buying the books - what can be wrong with this???

What’s wrong with giving the book away to all rainbows? We’ll make sure that you have food, clothing, and shelter.

> Why are you against libraries??? Are you against this outlet to the very important skill of reading???

From: Michael Cardinal
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 22, 1999

> What’s wrong with giving the book away to all rainbows? We’ll make sure that you have food, clothing, and shelter.

ROFLMAO, obviously your socialistic and utopian attitude portrayed in what I hope is a “tongue in cheek” comment below comes from one who has never seen the bills portrayed on the ledgers of the REAL WORLD or never took the time to consider where the free-box was loaded from! Some of us in the family come into the gather after working for a living at whatever we do and share with each other at gather. Without libraries, we would be sorely used in that only the very rich would have books or access to them. Something to think about. Preacher Mike <amcar...@ddaccess.com.>

> What’s wrong with giving the book away to all rainbows? We’ll make sure that you have food, clothing, and shelter.

Good point. The reply will probably be that money has to be charged for the book (and that includes the libraries that buy it) to cover publication costs and the time and creative effort it took the author to write it.

From: Dan7hawk9
Subject: Libraries (was:Rainbow Book)
Date: February 22, 1999

> Without libraries, we would be sorely used in that only the very rich would have books or access to them. Something to think about. Preacher Mike

It’s gonna be library data banks. It will be like Star Trek, we will just walk around in our house and speak out loud, “computer, why when I eat a lot of raisins I get the farts, and what is a good exercise that will give me stronger orgasms.” And all the information in the world will be at our fingertips or is that at the tip of our tongue. : )

No having to drive to town, find a place to park, fight the crowds, then do it all over again when you have to bring the stuff back.

I heard a futurist say once that we will all have our own personal android. Sort of like Rosy on the Jetsons.

“It is not so important to be serious as it is to be serious about the important things.
The monkey wears an expression of seriousness which would do credit to any college student,
but the monkey is serious because he itches.”
- Robert M. Hutchins

From: sonsu...@aol.com
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 22, 1999

In a message dated 2/22/99 11:56:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, amcar...@ddaccess.com writes:

> Some of us in the family come into the gather after working for a living at whatever we do and share with each other at gather.

Anyway, I work for a living too. My definition of a living would probably be substandard to you, judging by your air.

> What’s wrong with giving the book away to all rainbows? We’ll make sure that you have food, clothing, and shelter.

> Some of us in the family come into the gather after working for a living at whatever we do and share with each other at gather.

> Well I NEVER!!!
> Anyway, I work for a living too. My definition of a living would probably be substandard to you, judging by your air.

Sure you can get it for free, but then you are burdening some one else who had to pay for it.

Accepting free things like books, food stamps welfare can be a cop-out if used as pure charity as well as deceiving yourself.

No don’t get me wrong I don’t believe accepting charity is wrong, I just have a problem with the overly simplistic delusion of some.

To publish a book takes money.. giving it away cost money. I see nothing wrong with selling a book.

As an example I work a pretty good job, but I use a large amount of my income to help others as well as contribute to rainbow (I bring food and pay for the Shante Sena Radio Repeater each year). It takes money and work to produce these things.

P.S. Hey folks remember to switch to using gath...@conf.welcomehome.org, not gath...@cygnus.com for all AGR posts.
&P.P.S. The 1998 Arizona Gathering CD MP3 music recordings can be found at
ftp://ftp.xichron.com/xfer/Music_from_the_Campfires.html
Info on obtaining this CD can be found by e-mailing me at Hawker@Connriver.net
(Note CD on temporary hold till end of Febuary)

From: Michael Cardinal
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 22, 1999

Me? Abrupt? Nah, I thought it was being short and to the point, ah well, can’t please everyone, chuckle! PM

> ROFLMAO, obviously your socialistic and utopian attitude portrayed in what I hope is a “tongue in cheek” comment below comes from one who has never seen the bills portrayed on the ledgers of the REAL WORLD

Hawker™ wrote in message <4.1.19990222194850.00af0e50.alt.gathering.rainbow@mailserver.segnet.com>...

> It takes resources in this world to create things.
> Wether you chose to believe it or not, that translates to money.
> The clothing, shelter, and food you mention takes $$$.
> Sure you can get it for free, but then you are burdening some one else who had to pay for it.

Maybe your post will give some of the socialist brothers and sisters out there something to think about!

ps please let me know what I can do to help with the repeater. For the past 15 years, I have been an Electronic Technician in the Navy.

From: Michael Cardinal
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 22, 1999

> It takes resources in this world to create things.
> Wether you chose to believe it or not, that translates to money.
> The clothing, shelter, and food you mention takes $$$.

Why not “pants “ libraries?
or food tasting libraries, like those little set ups at the market?

Maybe seed libraries?
Just getting t owhere nother book ain’t gonna do nothin.....

> Me? Abrupt? Nah, I thought it was being short and to the point, ah well, can’t please everyone, chuckle! PM

I just felt that your initial response (see below) was a bit abrupt and could be construed as a bit rude if one desired to take it that way.

Sometimes it isn’t what you say that people remember so much as how you say it.....

> AHO Hawker!
> Maybe your post will give some of the socialist brothers and sisters out there something to think about!

Ah shucks I rather like Socialism (when it is set up right). I hope my post didn’t come off sounding like I was against that.

Quite the contrary. Problem with Crap-it-all-ism is the rich keep getting richer while the poor keep having babies (anyone know who’s quote I just ripped off? I forgot). The greedy can, and do, take all, while those who put in in “lesser” roles (as deemed by there paycheck) get less.

Socialism is supposed to even us all out. As long as we all put in the same effort we get out the same amount. Those who don’t put in get nothing. Actually this is more like Rainbow than any known Socialism. Perhaps that is one reason I like it so much.

> ps please let me know what I can do to help with the repeater. For the past 15 years, I have been an Electronic Technician in the Navy.

I’ve been doing the radio and repeater thing for about 5 years now ( radio since Alabama 93? - repeater since Missouri 95?) and am ready to move on. Problem is no one has taken my place.

I would much rather be recording music or working on water filters. I design electronics for a living - would be nice to leave that stuff at home when I hit the gathering.

The PA is a pile of junk, the x-mitter isn’t bad, the Receiver is par for the course. (mostly Hamtronics / Homebrew stuff)

The duplexer is pretty nice (100db 6 cavity), the antenna is Awesome, the mast is garbage (got any ideas - need portable 60 to 100 feet - antenna is 18 feet). Feedline is o.k. (lmr-600 -2.6db/100 at receive freq) Battery is dead - broke one solar panel. The controller is o.k. needs a few new features but I’m to busy to build a new one. Never did get remote battery monitoring or auto patch working - didn’t have the time.

In addition to that I got a pile of “junk” radios to fix, tune (sometimes crystal) and get on line. Anyone got a “spare” service monitor out there? Had access to a free one last year, but not this year.

Could use a half dozen J-pole fold up (using 400ohm ladder line) antennas (good weekend project).

P.S. Hey folks remember to switch to using gath...@conf.welcomehome.org, not gath...@cygnus.com for all AGR posts.
P.P.S. The 1998 Arizona Gathering CD MP3 music recordings can be found at
ftp://ftp.xichron.com/xfer/Music_from_the_Campfires.html
Info on obtaining this CD can be found by e-mailing me at Hawker@Connriver.net
(Note CD on temporary hold till end of Febuary)

> Talk about a book. Talk about a man selling his book. Man said his book was in libraries. Libraries don’t sell the books. I was making a point that you very obviously missed.

Some public libraries do sell books. When they think they have too many they get rid of the excess. I’ve also seen the Salvation Army throwing away books that they couldn’t sell. I collect discarded books. In my travels, I’ve found that different places have an excess of different kinds of books.

From: SonSu...@aol.com
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 23, 1999

In a message dated 2/22/99 7:18:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, pc...@cyberramp.net writes:

From: SonSu...@aol.com
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 23, 1999

In a message dated 2/22/99 6:11:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, Haw...@connriver.net writes:

> Wether you chose to believe it or not, that translates to money. The clothing, shelter, and food you mention takes $$$.

2. Did you plan on needing money for the book? This is asked because I think that if it is the case that creating the book would have put you in such a tight spot that you had to ask for compensation for sharing it, then you might have been better off using Xerox.

This last part is used to demonstrate that if you did not plan on needing money for the book and wound up in a financial sling, for lack of counting on a certain factor or something unforeseen came up, then you are likely to get the help you need for maintaining food, clothing, shelter, and some slight modicum of entertainment. In other words, if you are not in such a sling and are asking monetary compensation then one of two things (as far as I can see) are the case:

I can salute the latter and only shake my head at the former. Only you know which of these categories you fall into.

Who cares? The proof is in the sales. If it sales, it is a success, if it doesn’t, well every chance to make money to improve ones life is a gamble.

> 2. Did you plan on needing money for the book? This is asked because I think that if it is the case that creating the book would have put you in such a tight spot that you had to ask for compensation for sharing it, then you might have been better off using Xerox.

What is wrong with writing a book to put out ones ideas and then make money off of it. Believe it or not, it is not a crime, sin, or otherwise wrong to want to make money!

> This last part is used to demonstrate that if you did not plan on needing money for the book and wound up in a financial sling, for lack of counting on a certain factor or something unforeseen came up, then you are likely to get the help you need for maintaining food, clothing, shelter, and some slight modicum of entertainment. In other words, if you are not in such a sling and are asking monetary compensation then one of two things (as far as I can see) are the case:
> a) you are seeking profit
> or
> b) you are attempting a wealth redistribution project
I can salute the latter and only shake my head at the former. Only you know which of these categories you fall into.

b) I for one am totally against wealth redistribution!! I hate it when people want to take money from someone just because they feel that that person has “enough” and then give it to those who they feel need “help”. Especially when the former works hard for the money, and the later sits around waiting for their government check!! The graduated tax scale is immensely unfair and punishes those who succeed.

> > Wether you chose to believe it or not, that translates to money. The clothing, shelter, and food you mention takes $$$.
> In most cases, yes. However, I think the pertinent questions here are :
> 1. Is this book vital information?

Doesn;t matter it is entertainment or whatever... there is a need so there is a market.

This makes no sense.. Xerox’s cost $$$ as well if you don’t use the book to get $$$ then you need to do something else... might as well write a book and follow your heart song.

You just don’t get it do you.....
There is nothing evil about making a profit and earning money
It’s what you do from there that changes your “goodness”

In fact not making a profit is a bad thing.
In this society it takes money to exist.
If your not making it then you are USING someone else money. While you don’t seem to like this it is the fact of the matter. That is they way the world is and we can’t change that overnight.

Writing a book is just another form of a job...
Some flip burgers, some write books, I design audio equipment.
We do this to earn money in society so that we can give to society and not take from society. If we all give more than we take then the world will get better. If you don’t give then you end up taking more and are a burden and a drain on society.

Money is not evil, it is just a convenient barter medium.
Easier to trade my tofu for $$$ and trade my $$$ for a computer than it is to try to buy my computer with tofu.....

By your last statement I can only assume you think working is evil and you are fighting the system by collecting food stamps etc.

Where you are disillusioned here is that if you are fighting the system by not working you are using the system to take care of you, and as such are not really fighting the system but being even more a part of it. You are being a burden on those who chose to cooperate with the system and as such are not respecting them...

1) 16 years old, live at home and don’t do squat. your folks take care of you so you have no responsibility nor do you know how to be responsible and take care of you self. others have done it for you your whole life so your not very grounded in reality.

2) you used to be #1 now your in your 20s and never learned how to take care of yourself. you ask others to by getting food stamps welfare etc. You life is al about how you can cheat the government into giving you more of “what they owe you”. You think you are fighting they system by using it and won’t lift a finger to help yourself.

From: Randall, Holly-SEA
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 23, 1999

> Money is not evil, it is just a convenient barter medium. Easier to trade my tofu for $$$ and trade my $$$ for a computer than it is to try to buy my computer with tofu.....

I agree with you, Hawker. Money, itself, is not evil. It would be the attitudes or behaviors to which one subscribes to. I believe that I am entitled to abundance - as long as I deprive no one else of what is rightfully theirs. I also believe that it is an outdated point of view that it is somehow wrong to have wealth or to live comfortably. So outdated that I think it comes from past times when many of us were in service to God/Jah/Jehovah, whatever - and had taken vows of poverty. That no longer serves us! It is alright to experience abundance! And about the only way most of us know how to do this is by working.

> By your last statement I can only assume you think working is evil and you are fighting the system by collecting food stamps etc.
> Where you are disillusioned here is that if you are fighting the system by not working you are using the system to take care of you, and as such are not really fighting the system but being even more a part of it. You are being a burden on those who chose to cooperate with the system and as such are not respecting them...

HO!! Unless you are living on the land somewhere, growing your own food (having made your own tools, yes?), not using electricity, blah blah blah. You know where I’m going with this! There is virutally no way anyone can any longer turn their back on “the system” 100% - no matter *how* much any of us would love to! So, accept that you are part of this system because you use it! Whether it’s using materials produced within the system or using food stamps or letting another person (like the folks or your partner or...) support - chances are, you’re a part of the system. so let’s get real, eh?

so what ya probably need to do is to figure out how to improve the system. live your life as you would want others to live, hold yourself up as an example. you could teach, work in nursing homes, environmental organization - wherever your passions and concerns take you and work on making this a better world.

> There is nothing evil about making a profit and earning money.
> It’s what you do from there that changes your “goodness”

From: Michael Cardinal
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 23, 1999

Hawker,
Thank you bud, I have a massive test tomorrow, Taking a bit of a break to peruse the NG for a break. and came upon this person’s comments..............

I felt the driving need to have a chat of a similar nature with this fellow, now, I can return to my studies at peace, chuckle.....

From: SonSu...@aol.com
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 23, 1999

hoarding and sharing are the alternatives i referred to. no matter how many times i say it, you will choose to hear or to ignore

> b) I for one am totally against wealth redistribution!! I hate it when people want to take money from someone just because they feel that that person has “enough” and then give it to those who they feel need “help”. Especially when the former works hard for the money, and the later sits around waiting for their government check!! The graduated tax scale is immensely unfair and punishes those who succeed.

on the other hand, maybe you did understand what i was saying but are actually defending your right to hoard. so be it. let your ‘whatever’ flag fly

SonSu...@aol.com wrote in message <60db98dd.36d33b74.alt.gathering.rainbow@aol.com>...

> on the other hand, maybe you did understand what i was saying but are actually defending your right to hoard. so be it. let your ‘whatever’ flag fly

Damn straight!!! What is mine is mine to do as I see fit!! I can “hoard” it for me and mine, I cand donate what I will as I see fit. I abhore those that presume to tell me what I should or should not do with what is mine. This includes money that I earned. This is the fundamental problem with the tax structure. The powers that be seem to think that all money rightfully belongs to government and it is government that decides how much we peans should keep for our selves.

GIVE US BACK OUR TAX MONEY (you know the SURPLUS) IT IS NOT YOURS!!! I wonder if any in Washington heard that??

> > There is nothing evil about making a profit and earning money. It’s what you do from there that changes your “goodness”
> AHO!
> Peace,
> Crystalhawk

So, that being the case, can anyone put it in plain words (for the benefit of the newbies and the oldies) why it is not appropriate to buy and sell at the gathering or to advertise goods for sale on this newsgroup.

> hoarding and sharing are the alternatives i referred to. no matter how many times i say it, you will choose to hear or to ignore

What’s with this. you make no sense, your logic just isn’t there.
Where do you get this hoarding thing from.
Making money isn’t hoarding money.

Making money is giving yourself the means to contribute.
Once you make the $$$ then you can decide what to do with it, just because you have it doesn’t mean you “hoard” it.

You seem to think making $$$ is wrong.
I don’t “hoard” my $$$. Quite the contrary I give quite a bit back to the world.

Since you don’t seem to understand that. Last year I donated about $3,000.00 to rainbow related items including the radio system, repeater, water filters, food, magic hat, batteries, etc.

This year I am making and passing out free CDs of the music of last year. I couldn’t have done that without an decent income.

As spring pointed out one changes this world by setting the example from within the system. Outright fighting and denying it only build up defences.

If you want to change those that you dislike the best thing is to show them a new way from within there system. If you example is to distant from there thinking they will never learn.

Since you seem to think you are so much better in giving and not hoarding, I turn the tables and ask you WHAT HAVE YOU GIVEN TO Rainbow and society in the last year?

From: Michael Cardinal
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 24, 1999

Sunson snipped some in answer to another’s post, I returned the favor, chuckle!

> hoarding and sharing are the alternatives i referred to. no matter how many times i say it, you will choose to hear or to ignore

PM
Let’s see, You say hoarding, or perhaps is it “saving” you see as wrong?
And those who actually work for a living should share with those who don’t?

Maybe, we should just put it all in a big pile and let whoever needs, take what they want? Hmmmmm.......How curious!

You see, I have lived out of free boxes off and on over the years, and have seen both “sides of the road” as it were.

I have also worked a job, then gone to gathering to give everything away as a prank, only to have some of the same folks come up to me the following year expecting me to “share” with them again.

I am currently going to college making my bills as best I can while managing to keep my creditors bribed, so I can learn another trade, and be able to contribute instead of being a drain to society since an injury has denied me my livelihood.

As another has asked you previously, do you work?
Do you give all you have away?
Or you on the public dole?

There is no shame to accept or seek assistance from time to time, but to consider it a lifestyle has its own problems.

> on the other hand, maybe you did understand what i was saying but are actually defending your right to hoard. so be it. let your ‘whatever’ flag fly

PM
I can buy that, you haven’t fully explained your “right” either to mine or anyone else’s savings or income.......... Dazzle me........
preacher mike <amcar...@ddaccess.com>

From: Dan7hawk9
Subject: Reforming Society (was: Rainbow Book)
Date: February 24, 1999

I think the point is that the profit thing has gotten out of hand. It was an interesting idea when we live in small villages, towns etc...

Now many are getting wealthy at the expense of others. The system is out of balance. Many are getting wealthy at the expense of the environment, which no one should to do. We all share the environment, air, water, etc....

I don’t think it has to get to where each of us has to prove how much the other does, but to search for ideas as to what would be a fair way for all to receive rewards for our efforts, without harming our world or each other.

There are many that have enormous wealth, much more than needed and it wasn’t gotten by phyical labor.

I think at the heart of it all is a cry for justice. Everyone wants to be treated fairly, to receive an equal reward for equal amount of energy and time put out. It’s that simple, yet that complex in a crowded world.

Imagine you are in charge of the whole world. How would you like it to be? Go beyond just you, and look at all the others as your own blood brothers and sisters.

The squirrel stores nuts for the winter, but what if a few squirrels came up with a way to get most all the nuts so there wouldn’t be much left for the rest.

Change is a constant, the system must change to stay healthy, there is always a better way, don’t fight evolution. Getting stuck in doing it the way its always been done can limit one.

“as much trouble to discover what was right
as lesser men take to discover what will pay.”
- Kong Qiu (Confucius)

From: SonSu...@aol.com
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 24, 1999

> What’s with this. you make no sense, your logic just isn’t there.
> Where do you get this hoarding thing from.
> Making money isn’t hoarding money.

Mr. Dude, I will say this one more time only and then you are on your own and may flail as much as you wish. Several posts ago I made the statement that what you do with this money is what defines whether or not it is a destructive activity. Remember when I said that you can share or you can hoard? Since then I have reiterated this several times but you fail to hear it. Coyote Suprema? Maybe. At any rate, your defensiveness speaks for itself as you fail to hear my statements, made over and over, that you may not fall into that category at all. I have not put you in this category but have stated that whether or not you fall into such a category is something that only you know. Your defence of hoarding puts YOURSELF in that category and you are projecting when you claim that I did so.

From: sonsu...@aol.com
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 24, 1999

> PM
> Let’s see, You say hoarding, or perhaps is it “saving” you see as wrong?

What are you saving for? If the issue is hoarding vs. sharing then that is the key question. Economies are healthiest when the goods are being made and exchanged and used and not sitting in a pile. That is waste. Are we to save for a future that never comes or are we building something as a foundation of the future or are we saving because we are not satisfied with our Ford pick up and we want a Volvo.

I don’t know what contributions you speak of but your taxes are largely wasted.

> Maybe, we should just put it all in a big pile and let whoever needs, take what they want? Hmmmmm.......How curious!

> You see, I have lived out of free boxes off and on over the years, and have seen both “sides of the road” as it were.
> I have also worked a job, then gone to gathering to give everything away as a prank, only to have some of the same folks come up to me the following year expecting me to “share” with them again.

I do not advocate one extreme over another. I think I am running into the same brick wall that I always do in Babylon. It is exactly the same dynamic that occurs when I criticize Bill Clinton and immediately am labeled as a republican. This is a friend or foe mentality in that it indicates that one thinks that “you either agree with me or you are against me.” In this case it is a matter of “you either hoard or you are a loafer.” Many colors to the spectrum, my friends, and many shades of each color. It is not a black and white world. Incidentally, I know people that work their asses off all year to help make the nationals happen and share a very LARGE part of what they make and are happy for it AND have the strength to say NO to someone when they come asking for a freebie. Where do these people fit into this ‘tit or tat’ system? I tire of this ‘are you with me or against me.’ I would prefer to be with you and have you recognize that my opinion is not an act of war.

Yes. Have already answered that and, count on it folks, I consider this thread dead as I can only repeat myself so many times before coming to the conclusion that no one is listening.

There’s that ‘black & white’ mindset again. I am either a buddha(giving all away) or I am a parasite. To answer your question, I accept assistance when I need it, never from the government, but I rarely need it because my needs are meager. My needs used to be extravagant but I came into a more accurate definition of the word ‘need.’ Everything I could possibly NEED fits into my backpack and when and if my needs expand, they are unlikely to take up more than the back of a pick-up.

> There is no shame to accept or seek assistance from time to time, but to consider it a lifestyle has its own problems.

> Profit has become a God to many. How much is enough?
> I don’t think it has to get to where each of us has to prove how much the other does, but to search for ideas as to what would be a fair way for all to receive rewards for our efforts, without harming our world or each other.

> There are many that have enormous wealth, much more than needed and it wasn’t gotten by phyical labor.

Again, how do you decide how much is needed? What, mental effort doesn’t count?

> I think at the heart of it all is a cry for justice. Everyone wants to be treated fairly, to receive an equal reward for equal amount of energy and time put out. It’s that simple, yet that complex in a crowded world.

> Imagine you are in charge of the whole world. How would you like it to be? Go beyond just you, and look at all the others as your own blood brothers and sisters.

As long as they don’t “sponge” off of me, they are free to do what they can to better themselves.

> The squirrel stores nuts for the winter, but what if a few squirrels came up with a way to get most all the nuts so there wouldn’t be much left for the rest.

This assumes that there is a 0 sum gain when it comes to making money. That is just not true!

> Change is a constant, the system must change to stay healthy, there is always a better way, don’t fight evolution. Getting stuck in doing it the way its always

From: SonSu...@aol.com
Subject: Reforming Society
Date: February 24, 1999

In a message dated 2/24/99 6:36:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, j...@ddaccess.com writes:

> Again, how do you decide how much is needed? What, mental effort doesn’t count?

mental effort, when accompanied with physical effort gets good, smart things done

hey mon, good comments Re: shades of gray, repudiation of the bipolar extremism which seems to have infected so much otherwise sane and rational mainstream (sic) thinking. seems so many people are quick to choose “sides” in a contest of wits and sanity, such desperate wanting to be “correct” and otherwise pc appropriate. the machine wages its subtle campaign over hearts and minds, the bureautorepublocratic democorporatechnocracy keeps on keepin on . . . . .

Common sense I would presume. A lot of people who are extremely wealthy don’t do it for money; they have more than they know what do it with it all. It becomes a game of control and power.

To use one small example the French people decided what was enough when they revolted in what is labeled the French revolution. Same in this country, when England was greedy.

No one should have to live in fear as to whether or not his or her family will be taken care of. I heard a story once where a woman went to a hospital and she was refused care because she had no money. She went out in the hospital grounds and died under a tree.

We all decide how much is enough. All you have to do is think what will be fair to all of the people of the human race. It’s a constant search, evolving, and not some perfect plan that will last forever. Seeking to better oneself and society and all the inhabitants of this world. Justice/Fairness is the journey. The destination is endless.

This seems obvious, yes it counts. All of us count. Life counts. Feelings count. Love counts.

To find a way for as many, if not all, to experience as many happy moments as possible while visiting this world.

Again imagine you are Chief and the world is one big tribe, how would you want it to be. How would you care for your people? If you were the Father and all people were your children how would you set up the playground?

If you think everything is ok the way it is now, good for you. Some think it can and should improve, constantly.

> As long as they don’t “sponge” off of me, they are free to do what they can to better themselves.

Competing against big corporations is a little tough, some say close to impossible. To conform to the corporations is losing oneself. Being told how to dress, how to wear their hair, pee in a cup, etc... etc.... Corporation clone.

The path we are traveling down doesn’t feel all that safe to me; maybe I’m just losing it and have no idea what I’m talking about.

> > The squirrel stores nuts for the winter, but what if a few squirrels came up with a way to get most all the nuts so there wouldn’t be much left for the rest.
> This assumes that there is a 0 sum gain when it comes to making money. That is just not true!

Money is trading paper, you can’t eat it or drink it. It’s traded for stuff and there is only so much material to make stuff. There not making land anymore last I heard. Any stuff that is made that damages the environment needs to be altered. There are future generations that are coming to use this place.

Two brothers went to a judge to settle their dispute on the division of the estate left to them by their father. The judge ruled: “Let one brother divide the estate, and let the other brother have first choice.”

> The squirrel stores nuts for the winter, but what if a few squirrels came up with a way to get most all the nuts so there wouldn’t be much left for the rest.

Squirrels don’t find all the nuts they bury. That is why they can be attributed to planting the forest. However, if we don’t advocate leaving really old or dead trees standing in the forest, they won’t have any place to stay for the winter. I know it takes 75 years for an American beech to become a good habitat tree due to the heartwood rotting out. However, current forest guidelines suggest that trees be harvested on a 60 year rotation cycle. In addition, four hardwood trees can comfortably be grown in the space of one beech tree. There seems to a difference with priorities. Much more lives in a forest besides spotted owls, and a few endangered target species. When people start changing things around to benefit one issue or another, the theme of the forest also begins to change.

> So, that being the case, can anyone put it in plain words (for the benefit of the newbies and the oldies) why it is not appropriate to buy and sell at the gathering or to advertise goods for sale on this newsgroup.

At one time, I used to advocate the idea that it was fine to barter at a Gathering. Then one day I saw a reference to bartering somewhere on the IRS website (I really don’t remember where it was, but it was there, believe me). I suspect the problem lies with uncollected taxes for goods or products exchanged. If a receipt is needed by someone, tax needs to be charged. Just paying cash for something doesn’t excuse someone from not paying the tax. Anyone expecting something from another when they give something away needs to charge the tax.

Perhaps the only way to effect the exchange is to utilize the recycling drop off places much more than just a place to get rid of things. It can also be a place to get things too. I remember hearing an old saying many years ago, it went something like, “where money is exchanged, there the law will be also”.

Over the years, I’ve seen more people openly exchanging things for money and more skirmishes with those who represent the law. I’ve also seen people taking the law into their own hands and deciding to enforce arbitrary laws that change with the mood of the group. I’ve seen things tolerated that at one time people would not allow: e.g. the selling for money of Sacraments.

Is it too much to wish for more sharing of goods and services? And is it too much to wish for the garbage and trash to leave with those who generated it? Coming to a Gathering does not mean it is a time to do Spring cleaning, and leave it all behind. This is hardly a gift, though I saw it happen and I felt the wrath when I took offence to the practice.

What kinds of services would I like to see? I’d like there to be more Nature Walks, where we each could quiz each other on the ecology of the area we are visiting in. I’d rather take an understanding of the area with me rather than a bit of earth, stone, branch, or something naturally occuring on National Forest lands. These items incidentally belong no to the people who visit these areas, but to those that protect it for ALL people who visit there. I remember asking a Ranger for a price on pretty stones or dirt, and she said that they were charging $10 a ton. That would make a handful of soil cost only a penny or two. Why am I bringing this up? It is bad luck to take material from sacred places, and every place where the rainbow has gathered has been a sacred place. Is it so hard to ask for things rather than just take them? To do otherwise is disrespectful. If anyone has seen what happened to the vortex places around Sedona, you will know what I mean. That place gives me the willies, because I can feel the ominous presence of the Thunderbird people, as well as the subtle presence of the Snake people. It is like the Anasazi people never left, they are just behind the openings where they fled, so long ago.

Anyway, back to what CrystalHawk was saying, please don’t come to a Gathering expecting to buy something, to prove you were really there. Those things are only doomed to gather dust, one day to be thrown away. Keep your money for unexpected mishaps along your journey, or places where people babble on, and on, and on. Buy supplies before you come, then go to the information camp, to find out where to drop them off. If you must bring fermented things, tis better to make them and share them with the A-campers rather than stuffing a case of beer in your duffle and quaffing a brew in the Main Circle. Everything has it’s place, and the greed often associated with money has no place in the space where the Rainbow gathers.

However, the issue of signing a permit, to guarentee certain exclusionary requirements, such as “no money to be exchanged here” makes my plea for no more money at the gathering place purely optional. The laws of the land are not suspended where the National Forest begins. Civil rights of the individual are also guarenteed. If one says “we need no stinking permits”, they are also refering to the Constitution and in particular to the very rights that are being argued that they are not being upheld. Don’t forget, the Constitution permits Americans to live in ways that others in less free countries can only wish for.

If people are having problems with the permits issue, it is only because I was not at the council where the topic was discussed. Why wasn’t I there? I got tired of the injustice, and the doubletalk. Was it always this way? No, but enough strange things happened for certain people to think I was being mean to them, but this has never been the case. Spirit motivates me to do things in certain ways, but sometimes the reaction given me was not very in keeping with what some would wish rainbow to be all about. I don’t expect to get any good mail from my reply to this thread, as I’ve addressed some difficult issues that some folks have decided I am clearly way off base with. I have heard it said that the camp is at peace when everybody has come home. However, it seems like just about every time I go to one of the Nationals, I can’t help but find issue against people who have decided to offend Nature in some way. Maybe I shouldn’t have gone to school to learn about the forest, so perhaps I could let others know what lives there. Maybe I should have stayed ignorant to the abuses people like to think they are not doing, so I could keep a few good friends. I should have listened to the inner voice that said some of the people I’d met were misguided. But no, I had to plow the rocky path instead of the field, plant trees on the trail, and glue a lock together. You know, I once got staph on my feet so bad that I could hardly walk due to the excrutiating pain, and never got an offer of a shoulder to lean on, so I could get home to seek medical attention. I got tired of being put to the test, of people wondering when I was going to get mad. I didn’t get mad, I just got very sad, and left saying once again, “never again”. Maybe it is just time for me to go to sleep.

From: x9...@aol.com
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 25, 1999

In a message dated 02/24/1999 12:34:18 AM Pacific Standard Time, ca...@efn.org writes:

Been sitting in the barn most of today and waiting for a foal to drop, thinking about this post.

The first being “why it is not appropiate to buy and sell at the gathering” to be honest I’m not sure it isn’t appropiate to buy and sell at the gathering. We say the gathering is non-commercial and in most senses of meaning that is true. We do not charge admission and we do not approve of folks coming to vend. Which isn’t to say that folks don’t, only that the majority of folks come for a different reason. Some of the folks who come do so only to sit at the trading circle and engage in commerce, but they are few. Some come to outright sell things I don’t want to talk about here, sad but true and usually with no lack of customers. The type of buyinng and selling that doesn’t seem inappropiate to me, is the odd vehicle that trades hands or the drum or guitar that gets moved along for gas money. The tent or backpack that gets sold to buy some food for the way home. Anyway my point is that there is indeed a lot of buying and selling at gatherings and I’m not sure all of it is inappropiate.

The second being “advertising goods for sale on this newsgroup”. This is an unmoderated newsgroup and as such I’m not sure anything is inappropiate. I’m not even sure what this newsgroup is for. Some might think it is to discuss issues common to the rainbow family and events. Some might think it is for members of the group to discuss whatever they want. A combination of both would be my thought. But the ruling factor seems to be what the members of the newsgroup will tolerate. Someone offers a school bus for sale and not much gets said because it is seen as a common rainbow item. Someone offers t-shirts for sale and lots of folks object because they see it as someone trying to proffit. So I think advertising here isn’t so much inappropiate as it is case sensitive. Many folks have advertised or endorsed various herbal drugs. kitchen equiptment,water filters,computers,radios,etc without flack because it fills a common interest. ---------- s

From: Panzo’n
Subject: Reforming Society (was:Rainbow Book)
Date: February 25, 1999

SonSu...@aol.com wrote in message <658510de.36d4c142.alt.gathering.rainbow@aol.com>...

> mental effort, when accompanied with physical effort gets good, smart things done
> mental effort on its own, directs others to do the work for you

And this is bad? What is you have a great idea for a product or business, you can’t do all the work yourself. My father always told me that those who don’t or can’t use their brains use their muscles. Me, I’d rather use my brain, this is why I go to school to learn computer network administrator.

> > This assumes that there is a 0 sum gain when it comes to making money. That is just not true!
> Sorry, you lost me. What are you talking about?

The idea of a 0 sum gain means that there is a finite amount of money to be made in the world and if I make more than my “share” - whatever that means - then I am somehow taking away from you

> What if you have a great idea for a product or business,
> you can’t do all the work yourself.
> Panzo’n

Then you get some brothers and sisters to join you and everyone shares the profits.

> A lot of people who are extremely wealthy don’t do it for money; they have more than they know what do it with it all. It becomes a game of control and power.

> To use one small example the French people decided what was enough when they revolted in what is labeled the French revolution. Same in this country, when England was greedy.

> No one should have to live in fear as to whether or not his or her family will be taken care of.

It is used though to get you to believe there is only “one” way to “take care of “.

> I heard a story once where a woman went to a hospital and she was refused care because she had no money. She went out in the hospital grounds and died under a tree.

> We all decide how much is enough. All you have to do is think what will be fair to all of the people of the human race.

> It’s a constant search, evolving, and not some perfect plan that will last forever. Seeking to better oneself and society and all the inhabitants of this world.

> > mental effort doesn’t count?
> This seems obvious, yes it counts. All of us count. Life counts.
> Feelings count. Love counts.

> To find a way for as many, if not all, to experience as many happy moments as possible while visiting this world.

This is not the way I live, simply put, I seek a conflict in which I make a difference........it is not a happy way....but misery..... especially when one is naive about others integrity.......

> Again imagine you are Chief and the world is one big tribe, how would you want it to be. How would you care for your people? If you were the Father and all people were your children how would you set up the playground?

I’d provide a “funzone” for some and leave the others alone to rip each other off mentally, physically, materially and generally. My “care” would increase preventive measures in health, not hospitalization.

Or suggest other ways, just how long must one “search” to embark on the “destination” of action.

> > As long as they don’t “sponge” off of me, they are free to do what they can to better themselves.

They/Us scenario don’t fly rainbow friend. i frequently take down those who I feel are hurting others, or give them the tools to halt the “control”.

> Competing against big corporations is a little tough, some say close to impossible.

I did for ten years, as my only employee, and became the fourth largest competitor in a market of a few million.......but work ethics are self - taught. This is not taught by any “general” philosophical or religeous “doctrine”.

> To conform to the corporations is losing oneself. Being told how to dress, how to wear their hair, pee in a cup, etc... etc.... Corporation clone.

It is a choice though for those who want it, not my choice though:) Have to have some happiness with my choice to be miserable.

> The path we are traveling down doesn’t feel all that safe to me; maybe I’m just losing it and have no idea what I’m talking about.

No you are right, less safe all the time.......the adventure is different thaan moving into an unsettled land though.

> > The squirrel stores nuts for the winter, but what if a few squirrels came up with a way to get most all the nuts so there wouldn’t be much left for the rest.

I’d say the grasshoppers played all summer, and the ants aren’t going to wait around to make competition a possibility, squirrels without the “ant” mentality genetic structure have been aced out a while ago, analogy/simile/parable is a competitive deal hunh......kinda like case law between two “good” lawyers and a judge who knows the difference. Best not use the squirrel......hawk......chase rabbits..........you may cAtch one...

> > This assumes that there is a 0 sum gain when it comes to making money. That is just not true!

It is for me, I have been give notice by the State of Washington that all money I make is to be garnished.....not even the standard deductible of 150.00/week for living expenses is allowed....how do you think this makes someione who is hardworking and loves working feel?

> Sorry, you lost me. What are you talking about? i’m taking this out of context I’m sure hawk but it works...... I need to get it out........
> Money is trading paper, you can’t eat it or drink it. It’s traded for stuff and there is only so much material to make stuff. There not making land anymore last I heard.

How much of that could be given to every one with a social security card, 1 acre per person, non- saleable,.......what the country may not understand is a social security card is a piece of paper too! Money ain’t the only problem.

> Any stuff that is made that damages the environment needs to be altered. There are future generations that are coming to use this place.

I agree the methods of alteration need to be eco-friendly for people to have “real “ opportunities.

> Dan
> Two brothers went to a judge to settle their dispute on the division of the estate left to them by their father. The judge ruled: “Let one brother divide the estate, and let the other brother have first choice.”

Been doing this for years, when it comes time to share crops:) no judge involved;) just common sense.......backwoods knowhow........and helping.........and hardwork til recently, seems the government don’t need me working hard anymore.

Also I have two brothers and a sister, is the judge gonna rule division responsibility/ first choice on that......I don’t think so.

PS what ever happened to the Hellos and goodbyes in all these “reforming” rants?

> > What if you have a great idea for a product or business,
> > you can't do all the work yourself.
> > Panzo'n
> Then you get some brothers and sisters to join you and everyone shares the profits.
> Sharing is caring.
> Dan
> "Victory endures in consequences of which no one is defeated.

From: sonsu...@aol.com
Subject: Reforming Society
Date: February 25, 1999

In a message dated 2/25/99 12:57:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, dan7...@aol.com writes:

> Money is trading paper, you can’t eat it or drink it. It’s traded for stuff and there is only so much material to make stuff. There not making land anymore last I heard.

Exactly. Potatoes have an inherent value that does not disappear when a military/industrial complex collapse. Backing up the dollar with arms is global extortion.

From: SonSu...@aol.com
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 25, 1999

In a message dated 2/25/99 2:47:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, rainbo...@usa.net writes:

> If anyone has seen what happened to the vortex places around Sedona, you will know what I mean. That place gives me the willies, because I can feel the ominous presence of the Thunderbird people, as well as the subtle presence of the Snake people. It is like the Anasazi people never left, they are just behind the openings where they fled, so long ago.

I know what you mean. However, I sense another energy as well there and I cannot name it. It is a benevolent energy and it feels like BIG MEDICINE.

From: sonsu...@aol.com
Subject: Reforming Society
Date: February 25, 1999

In a message dated 2/25/99 5:56:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, j...@ddaccess.com writes:

> My father always told me that those who don’t or can’t use their brains use their muscles.

Those who don’t use their muscles out of a matter of aloofness, i.e. “that’s for the stupid,” are exploiters, by definition. If you have no muscles to speak of, that is one matter. If you refuse to use them, that is another. Why are you too good to make your own things?

From: sonsu...@aol.com
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 25, 1999

In a message dated 2/25/99 12:49:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, X9...@aol.com writes:

> Some of the folks who come do so only to sit at the trading circle and engage in commerce, but they are few. Some come to outright sell things I don’t want to talk about here, sad but true and usually with no lack of customers. The type of buyinng and selling that doesn’t seem inappropiate to me, is the odd vehicle that trades hands or the drum or guitar that gets moved along for gas money

YOW!! As a commercial event, gatherings are subject to a whole myriad of regulation that a non-commercial event are not. PLEASE DO NOT COME TO THE GATHERING TO BUY OR SELL!!!

> > We all decide how much is enough. All you have to do is think what will fair to all of the people of the human race.
> Anytime someone says “all you have to do”.....I think I feel sick.

A lot of your comments to each line I wrote was confusing, but I don’t want to make you sick again by replying. Perhaps it may make you feel better not to read my posts.

From: x9...@aol.com
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 25, 1999

In a message dated 02/25/1999 8:37:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, dragnfly@Bliss.not writes:

> Vending of goods (all out Sales) endangers the NON-Commercial status, of the Gathering.

Uuh, I really hate to say this, but you’re not exactly correct. I use to think the same thing and in the past it probably was truer, however the latest version of the F.S. regs do not prohibit the sales of goods in any strictly legal sense. --------- s

From: Michael Cardinal
Subject: Reforming Society
Date: February 25, 1999

> Those who don’t use their muscles out of a matter of aloofness, i.e. “that’s for the stupid,” are exploiters, by definition. If you have no muscles to speak of, that is one matter. If you refuse to use them, that is another. Why are you too good to make your own things?

My brother was raised by a mellower version of the same man that raised me, and I got to tell you, you totally missed the point, but then that happens a lot here, dontcha know, . PM

From: x9...@aol.com
Subject: Rainbow Book Update
Date: February 25, 1999

In a message dated 02/25/1999 9:39:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, SonSu...@aol.com writes:

> YOW!! As a commercial event, gatherings are subject to a whole myriad of regulation that a non-commercial event are not. PLEASE DO NOT COME TO THE GATHERING TO BUY OR SELL!!!

PLEASE READ THE F.S. REGULATIONS on what is considered commercial and what is considered non-commercial.

But I personally agree it is a sad state of affairs that starts at the trading circle. ------ s

No, I just choose to have the people who know what they are doing do it! I know next to nothing about my car, so I take it to a mechanic...... I know next to nothing about making clothes, so I go to a store...... You seem to think that intellectual prowess or making money by using your brain is somehow aloof and not on par as digging a ditch. I don’t buy it.

p.s. I take offense to your assumption - and I quote - “that’s for the stupid” that those who choose to use their brain rather than their muscles are exploiters and look down their nose at those who use their muscles.

> to get my correct eddress drop the “o” from dragnfly
> and then just change the @Bliss.not to------------->@one.net
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Dragonfly, I find your reply and others bearing your name also bearing commercial advertisements by way of DejaNews. If you will note, they have a text only option on their web page that omits not only the advertisements but also decreases the associated bandwidth of each individual post made this way.

just a thought, kind of ironic to listen to you speak poorly of commercial endorsements, and yet see you include web pages with associated commercial advertisements on this news group.

> To publish a book takes money.. giving it away cost money.
> I see nothing wrong with selling a book.

> As an example I work a pretty good job, but I use a large amountof my income to help others as well as contribute to rainbow (I bring food and pay for the Shante Sena Radio Repeater each year). It takes money and work to produce these things.

____________________________________________________
Get your free personalized email address at http://www.MyOwnEmail.com

> AHO Hawker!
> Maybe your post will give some of the socialist brothers and sisters out there something to think about!

That’s quite a logical leap. Here are some things for capitalist brothers and sisters to think about (since you’ve leapt us here).

I don’t categorize myself as either a capitalIST or a socialIST because I think each places too much importance on material. I am, however, opposed to the disproportionate distribution of wealth and power that has resulted from capitalISM.

World hunger is not due to man’s inability to grow enough food but rather due to the refusal of those in power to allow sufficient food production (limited supply increases price in a capitalist system hence govt. subsidies for withholding production). Education about population control is a superior alternative to population control by starvation.

Capitalism depends on shortages. The fact that a large number of people participate in this way of thinking does not decrease it’s obscenity.

Submission to being judged in the legal system is based ENTIRELY on the idea that judgement will be impartial. The “propping up” of capitalism subverts that entire concept with the notion that the degree of one’s access to justice ought be based on his ability to pay for it. Why does white America have problems with O.J. getting off due to his ability to hire good legal counsel and at the same time refuse EQUALLY COMPETENT counsel to an ACCUSED indigent based on his inability to pay? Capitalism, that’s why.

In the United States the principle of equal justice is subservient to the religion of capitalism......period!

Private property is, at best, a necessary evil. In the case of a physical item that may be possessed by only one person at a time, property rights are needed in case of dispute but intellectual property rights are nothing more than a propping up of capitalism. For example, my use of your software or book does nothing to diminish your ability to use those items. My use of those items IS important in the case of “keeping score”.

Capitalism’s main function is to provide justification for a disproportianate distribution of wealth and a means of coercing participation in the Monopoly game that some view as the meaning of life.

If you have a need to justify your participation in the marketplace that’s your business but putting down those who refuse to participate is unjustified in my opinion.

I’ve always felt better about sharing something for free than deriving wealth from providing that same thing. Since I live in a capitalistic society I have no choice but to perform some tasks to “gain credits”. Something about that makes me feel like Pavlov’s dog and B.F. Skinner’s rat.

http://members.tripod.com/~rationalone/
“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away”

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> Sorry I made you feel sick. It was an opinion.
> A lot of your comments to each line I wrote was confusing, but I don’t want to make you sick again by replying. Perhaps it may make you feel better not to read my posts.

Nope.......it (my comments) were just honest from my heart and not meant to be connected or read between, it (my comments) were coming from a tough time, (that was yesterday)..........I just “thought” I was sick.... but “all you have to do” is forget I wrote this.

This message will self destruct in 20 seconds....all ya have to do is reply should you accept this mission......

Google Advanced Group Search can be accessed by first calling up a group name in Google Groups (alt.gathering.rainbow is at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.gathering.rainbow) and then clicking on the little black arrowhead inside the search window at the top of the page – at the extreme right, just to the left of the blue magnifying glass search button).

Not all posts can be found in Google’s archive; posters had the option of putting “X-No-Archive” in their headers, and some other posts are apparently completely lost for other reasons. Using their search engine is also hit and miss; I sometimes had to try several combinations of words to find some posts. The originals of all of these posts can most easily be found by enclosing the thread name in quotation marks in the Subject: box.