Vision Council part 3

Vision Council – part 3

From: gathering
To: gathering
Subject: where
Date: Friday, November 21, 1997 5:22AM

> is there any info on on what State is a more possibility and what area is being scouted?????? When will the decission be made?

according to Sarah - it’s Arizona - period.

according to *other* sources - it’s Arizona first then possibly Utah

so can someone with irrefutable sources please then answer this?

peace!

spring
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At 08:36 AM 11/21/97 PST, Randall,Holly-SEA wrote:

> according to Sarah - it’s Arizona - period.
> according to *other* sources - it’s Arizona first then possibly Utah
> so can someone with irrefutable sources please then answer this?

> ---------- <snip>

“irrefutable sources”? in rainbow? I sure hope someone can find them because I got all kinds of questions to ask them : )

But to the point..... I (along with others) was also at the site when consensus was finally reached. Though I was not personally at the council at time of consensus, Sara’s version is consistent with what I heard after consensus was reached.

I know of NO other sources to the contrary of this (unless your counting rumors people keep saying based on nothing other than “I heard/read Utah was an alternative”)

I have tried to be careful of making wild/vague statements by showing “where” my information is coming from.

You state “other” sources say differently but fail to mention what these sources are.

May I ask what your “other” sources are? ..... BJ

> “irrefutable sources”? in rainbow? I sure hope someone can find them because I got all kinds of questions to ask them : )

too strong a word? sorry!

> But to the point..... I (along with others) was also at the site when consensus was finally reached. Though I was not personally at the council at time of consensus, Sara’s version is consistent with what I heard after consensus was reached.
> I know of NO other sources to the contrary of this (unless your counting rumors people keep saying based on nothing other than “I heard/read Utah was an alternative”)

as far as i know, no.

> You state “other” sources say differently but fail to mention what these sources are.
> May I ask what your “other” sources are? ..... BJ

i’m sorry BJ. Feel free to give me flak for believing someone. I won’t say who - if they want to get on, join in and talk about what happened, fine. but i don’t feel comfortable divulging their names.

So, here i am, spring - give it to me, i don’t mind. :-)

still love you all -

At 02:05 PM 11/21/97 PST, Randall,Holly-SEA wrote:

> > “irrefutable sources”? in rainbow? I sure hope someone can find them because I got all kinds of questions to ask them : )
> > too strong a word? sorry!

Hey, I was just goofing with that statement... no need for apologies.

Too strong a word? …. No not really, more like “too silly” (though I plan on sharing that expression next year with the folks at “ information/rumor control”, who I’m sure will make creative rumors with it : ) : ) :o)
================================

> i’m sorry BJ. Feel free to give me flak for believing someone. I won’t say who - if they want to get on, join in and talk about what happened, fine. but i don’t feel comfortable divulging their names.

Hey no problem at this end.

I’m not the least bit upset with you.

I was just trying to make it clear that “Arizona” was indeed the consensus.

I knew you were just repeating things you heard others say ( which was a point of my post).

Like I said, “where” we’re going is really not that important to me, but “how” we spread information (or dis-information) is.

I’ve seen several past mentions that vision council consensus included Utah (and also some stating just Arizona)… no big deal.

But then recently there seemed to be a new batch of posts asking “where” it was going to be (or to that effect). Then several people answered with various versions that all “included” Utah. Even Rob (shame on you : ) , implied Utah was part of the consensus.

But this time, no one was saying differently (saw sailors post after I posted)

After the last version mentioning bio-region, I felt something needed to be said to correct these rumors.

I feel it is ALL our responsibility to speak out when something seems improper, expecially if no one else seems to be addressing it.(easier said than done of course : )

None of us like to find out we are spreading false rumors.

But letting folks think Utah was some part of the consensus could lead to problems down the road for scouts and other folks helping to find next years site.

But hey! If we’re going to talk about “vision council consensus”, why stop at the annual game we play called, “where will it be” ? ...let’s really dive in.

Here’s some of MY thoughts on vision council and any consensus it makes…. Peace

I wish half the energy that’s spent each year on wanting to know “what” the consensus was, was spent on wanting to know “how” it was.

Our vision councils need some of the harmony & focus they once had (not that they were ever perfect).

I don’t know about anybody else, but my experience with vision councils has mostly been one of sadness. This years gathering was going so well, I thought I would see our family at one of it’s highest moments sharing visions and finding our next home. But once again I saw unbelievable anger, shouting, disrespect, ego tripping & personal agendas. My idea of wanting to join in and sit all day quickly disappeared.

I saw one young sister finally get up in tears (and anger)and walk away after waiting days to speak without getting the opportunity, even after speaking out about it (she later returned and got her chance).

I saw people hold the feather for what seemed like an endless time. Not sharing with others in the circle but instead just going on and on and on (often times about some personal trip that mostly nobody was following), folks would scream to pass the feather, respect the feather and just plain “shut up”.

Arguments would fly back and forth in louder & louder voices. Name calling... finger pointing... and an “amazing” amount of ways of showing disrespect.

I kept thinking this is the place to take someone to show them the “worst” we have to offer.

Man what a sad thought.

Am I exaggerating? Not really. I’m being soft if anything.

I admit I was not there most of the time, especially the first few days.

I’m sure there were high moments where folks shared their heart and others listened.

And I’m not trying to imply everyone acted this way. For sure I saw others trying to be respectful and sharing at times (but the negative energy became infectious many times)

But I also saw what I saw.

The circle started off fairly big, stayed that way for awhile then got smaller and smaller as each day passed.

The smaller it got, the less focused it got.

Any discussion of picking a state quickly became a stalemate (east against west?).

You could taste “I can hold out the longest” in the air.

Any harmony, love or respect was not plainly visible.

It took until only “three or four people” were left to reach a consensus. (and way to many days)

That’s pretty sad to me.

What kind of family consensus is that?

I walked away from it all remembering why I don’t go to vision councils anymore (or tribal council for that matter), it hurts to much.

Not only because of the hypocrisy of the disrespect we show to each other at these times that SHOULD be one of our highest moments… but because we as a family don’t seem to be willing to change it.

Guess I’ll just join the others who no longer go to them for the same reason : ( Those that want to still see it as “special” time feel free to do so ... THE END
=======

Dear Spring, please know none of that was directed towards YOU I am just speaking from my heart (and maybe a little off point too).

You yourself do not deserve nor get any “flak” from me.

I was actually going to respond to an earlier post, but never got around to it until “your” post (lucky you : )

As for not revealing your “source”….. I can respect your reluctance and wholeheartedly agree with it. I really didn’t care “who” it was so much as the fact that unnamed sources were being used to spread false information.

Whether I’m right or wrong, I showed where my information came from so people could judge for themselves. I only wanted others to do likewise if they thought Utah was part of the consensus, that way folks can make their own informed decisions.

With only love and respect for you …… BJ

<<File Attachment: TEXT1.WRI>>

<snip>

> Too strong a word? . No not really, more like “too silly” (though I plan on sharing that expression next year with the folks at “ information/rumor control”, who I m sure will make creative rumors with it : ) : ) :o)

i see your point! it was a pretty silly choice of words, indeed! i’d love to hear the creative “irrefutable” rumors next year!
================================
<snip>

> Hey no problem at this end.
> I m not the least bit upset with you.
> I was just trying to make it clear that “Arizona” was indeed the consensus.
> I knew you were just repeating things you heard others say ( which was a point of my post).
> Like I said, “where” we re going is really not that important to me, but “how” we spread information (or dis-information) is.

thank you. i appreciate that point of view. it’s true there are so many of us (blessed be!) and so spread apart that it is very important to get our facts straight (correct) - my huge apologies for unwittingly contributing to this. i’m still waiting for “source” to speak up. but really, it doesn’t matter. so what am i saying?!

<snip>

> Then several people answered with various versions that all “included” Utah. Even Rob (shame on you : ) , implied Utah was part of the consensus.

<snip>

> But hey! If we re going to talk about “vision council consensus”, why stop at the annual game we play called, “where will it be” ? ...let’s really dive in.
> Here s some of MY thoughts on vision council and any consensus it makes .

Peace

> I wish half the energy that s spent each year on wanting to know “what” the consensus was, was spent on wanting to know “how” it was.

Yes!

> I don’t know about anybody else, but my experience with vision councils has mostly been one of sadness. This years gathering was going so well, I thought I would see our family at one of it’s highest moments sharing visions and finding our next home. But once again I saw unbelievable anger, shouting, disrespect, ego tripping & personal agendas. My idea of wanting to join in and sit all day quickly disappeared.

I think it’s sad that so many folks simply are not able to find the time to stay for vision council. I think I remember people wondering if there would ever be a way to council and consense on holding Vision Council at a different time? Is that right?

So many Rainbow live and work in what some call Babylon and cannot take the time they’d like to hang in there at Vision Council. It’s sad cuz I imagine it’d add a pretty different feel and a new light to Vision Council if more of the family could attend?

> I saw one young sister finally get up in tears (and anger)and walk away after waiting days to speak without getting the opportunity, even after speaking out about it (she later returned and got her chance).
> I saw people hold the feather for what seemed like an endless time. Not sharing with others in the circle but instead just going on and on and on (often times about some personal trip that mostly nobody was following), folks would scream to pass the feather, respect the feather and just plain “shut up”
> Arguments would fly back and forth in louder & louder voices. Name calling... finger pointing... and an “amazing” amount of ways of showing disrespect.

:- (

> I kept thinking this is the place to take someone to show them the “worst” we have to offer.
> Man what a sad thought.

heartbreaking

<snip>

> It took until only “three or four people” were left to reach a consensus. (and way to many days)
> That’s pretty sad to me.
> What kind of family consensus is that?

For real. cuz actually it isn’t. it’s the consensus of 3 or 4 people sounds like.

> I walked away from it all remembering why I don’t go to vision councils anymore (or tribal council for that matter), it hurts to much.
> Not only because of the hypocrisy of the disrespect we show to each other at these times that SHOULD be one of our highest moments… but because we as a family don’t seem to be willing to change it.

what can we as a family do about this? it *should* be one of our highest moments. zenith. and i think so important for the unity of the family which we need to better enable us to spread to others the love and light and joy we feel at the realization of our belonging to Rainbow!

> Guess I ll just join the others who no longer go to them for the same reason : (

I hope not.

> Those that want to still see it as “special” time feel free to do so ... THE END

We’ll see. I’d like to try.
=======
> Dear Spring, please know none of that was directed towards YOU I am just speaking from my heart (and maybe a little off point too).
> You yourself do not deserve nor get any “flak” from me.

Thanks, BJ - i appreciate the thought and the words.

> I was actually going to respond to an earlier post, but never got around to it until “your” post (lucky you : )

:-}

> As for not revealing your “source”….. I can respect your reluctance and wholeheartedly agree with it. I really didn’t care “who” it was so much as the fact that unnamed sources were being used to spread false information.

I agree with your thinking and your actions. And for the most part I would prefer to state who for the very same reason. however, since i now firmly believe that i was misinformed - well, what’s the point? i’m not even sure if maybe there isn’t some post from them in the archives. . . but i have learned well from you, BJ, your strong and patient words. And I thank you for taking the time to speak out from your heart as you have, teaching and bringing information to anyone willing to read.

> With only love and respect for you BJ

Again, thanks, BJ! As well - I reach out to you with love in my heart and a new fournd PROfound respect for you!

Spring… I’m going to try and keep this going …. Your turn next : )

(of course anybody feel free to jump in anytime you wish) …. BJ

> > It took until only “three or four people” were left to reach a consensus. (and way to many days)
> > That’s pretty sad to me.
> > What kind of family consensus is that?
> For real. cuz actually it isn’t. it’s the consensus of 3 or 4 people sounds like.

Well in all fairness those people are also carrying the words of many that were there earlier. But still, there is no reason for consensus not to be made with a larger group of folks involved (and in a MUCH shorter time)

> I think it’s sad that so many folks simply are not able to find the time to stay for vision council. I think I remember people wondering if there would ever be a way to council and consense on holding Vision Council at a different time? Is that right?

It’s been one of many idea’s passed around. As far as “how” to get a consensus for making change to the vision council, it’s hard to do. But I don’t believe anybody is happy with it’s current condition. That would lead one to think most are open for a change if it was well thought out and equal to all.

The only way I can see doing that in our current situation is for some folks to join together and focus on it. It really doesn’t matter how many people that is. What is important is the idea they come up with.

Half the problem is we often break down into arguing before we even get a chance to explore something. But if someone came up with a good idea that was well thought out then started sharing it with others, and then others, and even MORE others….. well, I think people would start going “right on!” “lets try it” Then after time spreading the idea around (and maybe some refinements), someone presents it to council for consensus. Maybe a little discussion but hopefully most things would have already been considered and reflected in the proposal so any discussion wouldn’t take so long as to kill any chance of getting a consensus.

It would be very similar to how we in the past have dealt with lengthy problems…. Those personally interested in a heated issue break from the main council so the council can move on to other topics. Then that side group councils with opposing view points present. When they come up with an agreement between themselves, they then bring it back to main council and share what they discussed and offer a proposal that they have all agreed upon. The tribal council will usually agree with the proposal (and quickly) because the folks with the biggest objections are usually part of the side council so a good proposal usually comes out of it. folks can see it pretty easy and trust enough time went into looking closely at it. (now I haven’t seen this done at council in a looooong time, but it is one way we have dealt with tough issues in the past)

So the idea I mention seems almost like the same thing except folks can work on it throughout the year and not just for a short time at the gathering.

Again, if a well worded proposal was created… My guess is it would pass pretty fast. Because we are all ready for “something” to change regarding vision council (and a whole list of other things : )

I think AGR offers an excellent opportunity for people to find each other and try something like this. Wouldn’t be a bad idea for these folks to initially “talk on the side” then after some focus bring the idea(s) up on AGR for comment.

If it could get refined there then shared with others then brought to tribal council for consensus. This could all be done before next July if enough effort was put into it. (could even help bring our cyber & non-cyber family closer together) … BJ
==================================

> So many Rainbow live and work in what some call Babylon and cannot take the time they’d like to hang in there at Vision Council.

It will always be true that many folks won’t have as much time as they’d like, to spend at the gathering… and somehow shortening the time of vision council would indeed help some. I also think a lot of people don’t go because of it’s present energy …. BJ
=====================

> It’s sad cuz I imagine it’d add a pretty different feel and a new light to Vision Council if more of the family could attend?

HO!
===================

> what can we as a family do about this? it *should* be one of our highest moments. zenith. and i think so important for the unity of the family which we need to better enable us to spread to others the love and light and joy we feel at the realization of our belonging to Rainbow!

Yes this could be a very high point of our gathering where people see us at our best and not at our worst.

As to what we can do as a family about it...... Personally I think there are simple solutions that would change things A LOT! And vision council is only one of our current problems that have simple solutions to them. That’s what makes things even more frustrating, because we can’t even solve simple problems. (ok, I might be deluding myself in thinking there are simple solutions to these problems, but I honestly don’t think so)

Example;
Vision Council: The way I see it one of the biggest problems that set us up to easily start arguing with each other and cause others to stay away, is that we mix TWO different kinds of councils together (this is also a main reason to our troubles with Tribal Council, but that’s another subject)

What IS vision council? I used to think it was when we came together to discuss our vision of where to gather the following year and then make consensus on it. (I consider this somewhat a logistical thing).

It seems others think it is also the time when we share all kinds of “visions”, not just about where we gather next (I consider this Heartsong)

Fact is little of our “traditions” are written in stone, let alone even understood or mutually agreed upon by most of us. So WHAT the purpose of vision council is I really can not say.

But mixing heartsong & business (?) councils at the same time just plain doesn’t work! (again this is at the heart of our tribal councils too)

Many folks have a strong desire for heartsong councils and there should be a time for folks to be able to do this. unfortunately no one who wants this seems to put any real effort into making it happen. So without any effort to create an opportunity for this, folks have only two options, tribal council & vision council (not that these are bad places for it).

Folks who are interested in logistical problems (how can we solve various gathering problems, etc)

Also have only two places to come together, tribal council & vision council - again not that these are bad places for that (there are cooperation councils for dealing with immediate business, but they don’t always happen and not regularly enough to count on, though this is an option worth focusing on too).

But when we try to do BOTH at the SAME time all hell breaks out.

They both are valid desires but when you mix them, neither side gets what they want.

If someone sits in council because they want to address some “business problem” (wish I could think of a better word for what I mean), they get real pissed off waiting and waiting for their turn to speak while others go on and on about some heartsong that has no immediate solution or doesn’t address some particular current problems. So this person gets impatient & PISSED for having to wait all day to address some business matter. Hell these councils are the only time we speak as one and can make “Family consensus”. Many of these folks are very busy during the gathering helping to make things run smooth for folks, they don’t have the time to sit all day to address a few issues that could be dealt with fast so they could get back to other commitments.

These folks then get pissed off at folks dragging things on and on with heartsongs.

They either give up and walk away (don’t come at all?) or they add to the chaos by trying to get things “moving along” so they can get to issues they consider more important. This leads to such expressions as “the councils are controlled by ego trippers and little can be accomplished” - “councils a joke” - etc.

Then you have the Heartsong folks:

They too have come to council, not so much interested in “business matters” but to share their heartsongs with others and to hear heartsongs of others.

They feel this is an important part of our gatherings.

THEY get pissed off at all those folks who try to hurry them along because they want to talk about some “matter of business”. They become offended and consider those folks themselves a bunch of ego trippers with personal agendas showing no respect for others needs.

And then of course there is the new folks coming to council not knowing what to expect but usually getting surprised by the chaos in something they thought was going to be a high time of family sharing (surprise!)

Unfortunately not only does everybody lose but this is how such problems as the great “date change” issue happen.

Our two councils are the only time we agree that “family consensus” can be made.

If folks stop going to council, it opens it up for a few to use it for personal agendas.

Then when others hear what was consented to at council, they scream bloody murder if it’s a consensus that they think is total bullshit. But then others say we HAVE to respect that consensus because it was done at the one time when we can call Family consensus. And if those folks chose not to be there that is “their” problem. Of course reality is, any family consensus is only as valid as the respect it gets. If enough people don’t agree with it then they will simply ignore it (like the date change?).

Especially when such controversial consensus’s happen with only a handful of people present at council (date change & vision council consensus for Colorado/south Dakota are examples).

SOLUTION ? Simple... just separate them!

Give both sides an opportunity.

That way they don’t have to interfere with each other.

HOW? … at tribal council each day, start with a business council (no heartsongs) Since there is seldom much “real” business to discuss at any given time, this could be done in a short time.

Folks wanting to deal with some important matters would know they could stop what their doing, come to council to address important issues then get back to work. Those mostly interested in Heartsong would know they didn’t have to be there first thing if they didn’t want too. and that they would not be interrupted by those wanting to “get down to business”.

After the first part of council (business matters), folks could then go into Heartsong and continue for as long as folks wanted to. Simple!

Under this scenario, any “family consensus” would only be called for during business council. no consensus’s would be made during the heartsong part ( after all it’s “Heartsong”). Proposals could be discussed maybe, but need to be brought back to council the next day for consensus.

Now folks who want to attend business matters know when it will be without having to hangout all day or be interrupted by heart song. They would also know that someone isn’t going to slip some consensus in while most folks aren’t there.

I think you would find more people participate that way (and people we NEED at our councils)

Folks who want to heartsong can now know they have a time when folks won’t be trying to disrupt things with attempts at trying to make controversial consensus’ or by people yelling to “move it along” because they think there are some more important things to talk about.

New folks would see us acting more as “Family”. they would have a chance not only to learn things, but have a better chance to participate and contribute.

There is other points too but I won’t go any farther at this time.

Of course this won’t solve all our problems of disrespect towards each other at council but would be a good start to getting there in my opinion.

This solution would be a win win deal for all groups and help bring are family closer together

OK, this sounds to simple, I must be missing something. somebody point out the folly of this please. Any other idea’s of solution?

As for Vision council: This becomes a little trickier but basically the same thing.

Hopefully if folks had a chance for heartsong councils during the gathering, the need for it at vision council might not be as important. But if folks still feel a need for it at vision council then it to should be separated from “business” (picking the next state)

This could be done several ways but the important thing is to SEPARATE the two. Folks could start vision council a day or two earlier with the understanding that no attempts for calling consensus would be tried the first couple days. then folks could move to a focus of picking the next state (which could include heartsong to some degree if it was pacifically related to picking the next place)

- OR - folks could start vision council with a focus “only” on picking the next place then after reaching consensus folks could continue vision council with heartsongs for as long as people wanted too without nobody getting bent out of shape. (this would be my choice of the two)

Again this doesn’t solve ALL problems with vision council but I think it’s a good start and would solve some big reasons for a lot of present anger (and sadness :(

I repeat.... OK, this sounds to simple, I must be missing something. somebody point out the folly of this please. Any other idea’s of solution?

(can’t seem to separate tribal council & vision council concepts because they are so similar) … BJ
=======

<snip>

> but i have learned well from you, BJ, your strong and patient words. And I thank you for taking the time to speak out from your heart as you have, teaching and bringing information to anyone willing to read.

> With only love and respect for you BJ
> Again, thanks, BJ! As well - I reach out to you with love in my heart and a new fournd PROfound respect for you!

Thanks, it’s encouraging to get some good feedback once in awhile (I’ll try not to let your compliments go to my head : ) : ) ..... BJ

PS. what’s that thing in your posts mean?... <<File Attachment: TEXT1.WRI>>

If it’s a file attachment, I can’t seem to find/open it.

BJ wrote:

snip

> Again, if a well worded proposal was created… My guess is it would pass pretty fast. Because we are all ready for “something” to change regarding vision council (and a whole list of other things : )

yes we are!!!!!

big snip - I hope you read this - its important

> Of course this won’t solve all our problems of disrespect towards each other at council but would be a good start to getting there in my opinion.

yes yes yes yes yes- this is an obvious idea- and well thought out-

yes yes yes yes

a little structure goes a long way - even for anarchists

marc

i agree wholeheartedly!!!!

Arizona it was and is....

...and on the how of council...my witness is about the same...and i was ashamed that i allowed myself to get upset at some of what struck me as posturing and pompous attacks on individuals not present and present...particulary poking at folks obviously already on edge.... and coming from *somebodies* who claim to know better....etc......i hate to dwell on it....but we really must get over the fear of getting centered with one another.... and get over our selfs long enough to see the treasure of diversity at our fingertips!

...and in my humble opinion, vision council is pushy and suffers from impatience and dominance trips but at least people still care enough to go to it... there was NO council at all on the 5th....i think we need to do more to get the workers freed up to council....and the “councilors” busy working...same old....but again....unless we get centered with eachother...it goes nowhere.....

AND it was extremely ironic (to me) that the folks who wanted to extend the gathering officio dates, etc....were doing this “to help the council”....in my view this would just add to the problems by giving non-workers an excuse to sit around even longer...while giving workers that much more to miss....and that much more to do cleaning up after councilors....etc.... it is not a matter of needing “more time” to sit together and envision....the time we have already is not being used....we need to use the time we have to get past the games and get real and get down to it....and up with it and GIVE VOICE to the TRUE consensus of PEACE...

love and light-sb

This entire debate simply points out that there is a need for the informaton from the councils to be distributed to the people. I am currently working on a consensus project to chronicle all consensus reached by the National Family, and by all regional families. I had my findings to date posted at INFO in Oregon this summer. I will also gladly send a copy by snail mail to anyone who sends me a large manilla envelope with postage and maybe a few cents for photocopying.

At the Oregon Annual Gathering, I tried very hard to find out what the council on the land talked about or reached decision about. Except for the councils I was at, I haven’t a clue. I check the INFO board daily. Asked the INFO crew and came up blank. We have got to have a way for information to be circulate amongst the gathering. And it has to be a better way than you lucked out an a friend was at council.

Love ya all,
Karin

BJ et al,

You’re all in my nonhumble opinion being too nice and ‘respectful’.

Vision Council doesn’t work because of little self interested egos and undesciplined thinking. No meeting on Earth can succeed if the individuals are without focus and desire to agree and conclude. When little minded Rainbows approach council with an eye toward strokng their egos and expressing their little desires and so called visions that noone anywhere else can comprehend nor will waste their time listening to ad naseum (thanks s) than the council is destined for chaos and uselessness. While useful thoughtful men and women work and serve, empty little minds dominate our visionless council (thanks again s) and succeed at sabotaging the best efforts of the intelligent and focused.

Take your heartsongs and bullshit where they belong! I have my own vision for my life and the future of Rainbow but will tell my friends about it away from business council. In council the desire to consense and proceed without narcisistic blithering should be paramount.

Today a day before heading South for Tday Council I pray that there is Family Unity in the desire to act intelligently, respect others and to=A0have MORPHUN rather than persue personel agenda and waste my time. Demolish your egos before opening your mouths! Think people!

Rainbows be healed! Use your fuckin brains!

BULL

inbow Circles.

11-22-97 BJ wrote:

> This could be done several ways but the important thing is to SEPARATE the two. Folks could start vision council a day or two earlier with the understanding that no attempts for calling consensus would be tried the first couple days. then folks could move to a focus of picking the next state (which could include heartsong to some degree if it was pacifically related to picking the next place)

whoooopssss well it’s good to see this has been addressed at lenght.....i was wonderin if i was the only one that felt this way.......and sorry if my follow up post to Rob’s is a bit redundant.......but just take it as a big HO!

i couldn’t read all of this one in one sitting so i emailed the rest to myself for later consumption;] nice going!!!

lov ya
Dragonfly

> Spring I m going to try and keep this going . Your turn next : )
> (of course anybody feel free to jump in anytime you wish) . BJ

> PS. what’s that thing in your posts mean?... <<File Attachment: TEXT1.WRI>>

Howdy BJ!!

that little attachment is how your message came to me! I believe my system auto converts any message it considers ‘especially’ long to a write file?? which I then open in notepad and copy into the e-mail. I guess I should cut the <<File Attachment: TEXT1.WRI>> in the future so as not to confuse folks. Sorry!

BJ - from everything I’ve heard I truly believe we all would benefit from separating Heartsong from Vision (picking next year’s site primarily, also other “business”) Council. I, personally, like your idea of beginning Tribal Council each day with a business council. I like that alot!!!

I also agree that a well-worded proposal would help immensely in getting this going and getting it consensed to. To work seriously on this before the coming summer’s Gathering and then present it at Tribal Council is IMHO an excellent idea! I am only recently returned to Rainbow and our Gatherings so I am not sure what I can offer but I would love to work on this with others.

Blessings
Spring

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[There was a post by Rob Savoye on Nov. 23 that is deleted from the Google archive.]

> I really like being in a focused council, where everyone is working hard to achieve consensus. The consensus process really shines when folks are willing to be open-minded and *listen* to each other. But vision council is about as disfunctional a council as exists...
- rob -

Perhaps “Vision Council” and Site Council” need to be seperate for expediency

To get random signatures put text files into a folder called ³Random Signatures² into your Preferences folder.

r...@cygnus.com (Rob Savoye) wrote:

> > Then several people answered with various versions that all “included” Utah. Even Rob (shame on you : ) , implied Utah was part of the consensus.
> Oops, guess I got it wrong too.

<snip>

dragonfly rants:

TIME for me to jump up and fess up to spreading the same untruth......i hate it when that happens....but it does help to keep me humble.....

> 2 states, or a bio-region, cause it’s less stress for the scouts. So to me, adding Utah as a “backup” made total sense.

same here! it was very easy to believe because if i was doing the scouting, i’d like something to fall back on if needed.....besides this stateline business stinks. i like to scout regionals in two states

> council is setup for failure, cause everyone wants to bring their visions to the council, but they often have nothing to do with site selection...

imho...therein lies the problem.......yep semantics again;] vision council i think could be a 1-2 day affair beginning the 5th and all the folks can share their heartsongs and visions then.......no consensus needed at all on a those items.....

then actually set the 7th as the start of site selection council to end on the 10th.... remembering that irresponsible blocking is just that!!!

if one individual continually blocks a council circle where everyone else seems to be pretty much in agreement then whatever happened to “that individual taking 3 other folks aside from the circle and trying to convince them to see things their way” and if the individual is able to get the other’s to agree in a little side council they return it to the feather for more discussion....if they aren’t able to, then discussion closed.

--i hope i’m not repeating something already mentioned but if i have then there are at least 2 of us that feel the same and isn’t it concievable we could bring about a change through the main tribunal council(?)

> Too many folks seem to see a large family council as their time to hold us all hostage so they can get some needed attention. Maybe we need a way to give these folks some attention, but not in the middle of vision council.

how about just giving them vision council early on and setting aside site selection as a seperate council not tolerating manipulation by those that are not focused on the work to be done.

> these same people also gripe about “too much business talk” in council, but >this is cause the “business” talk takes time way from their heartsongs.

even more reason to set up a site selection council after the vision council has presented the opportunity and platform for heartsongs and ideas on where we might go to be brought before the site council when it’s time comes?

HO! to that and it is disfunctional because we let it be; ] nothing is engraved in stone and the way things are now it makes it d_m near impossible for anyone “working” to get away to the council.

after the sister in NM looked at a bunch of us and blasted us for not being in main council and another brother monopolized the feather for 45min (after stepping into the circle at an opportune time), sitting in the blazing sun with a 2yr old to boot i really lost my appetite for attending and no matter how hard i try haven’t cared to go back to any council

now we had a similar conversation before the ozarks and i’m just as guilty as anyone else for not trying harder to participate and share my visions of a family that takes into consideration everyone’s needs or desires to participate, like shade when it’s available so the very young or old alike can sit in. a family that can focus long enough to agree on some parimeters to help facilitate a smooth process, where everyone has the opportunity to speak and be respected. a family who makes decisions in council with respect and not a consensus of attrition.

oh no she’s on a rant again........ooops supposed to be lurking...excuse the interuption.....just found one of my buttons;]........guess i should of sent the OGRE out for this one.....

hugzzzz.....Dragonfly

oh yes you can email me at the address below
** dragnfly (at) iac (dot) net
**(email address in english to reduce spam)

thanks for the tip Paul: ) i’ll see if this works even better

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