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A meeting in San Francisco - part 4

From: bodhi (The_Psychedelic_Tour...@yahoo.com)
Subject: This is what all the big fuss is all about.
Date: 2004-01-08 07:01:01 PST

Here are the names of the supposed "traitor" to the Rainbow Family. The ones who have created a secret cabal to hijack the Rights away from the mommas and the little ones in kiddie village thus condemming them to a life of slavery to the government. yep, enclosed are the dreaded RMT, who hold secret rites with the unholies.....bla...bla...bla...

While spending months trying to get William O'Leary and Sailor (the Woodsteins and Bernwards of the Rainbow Family) to reveal their sources, they have finally REVEALED ALL!!!!!

My response??

What a bunch of hysterical crybabies!

here's the list:

Barry Adams
Garrick Beck
Brian Michaels
Jeff Kline
John Buffalo

Badger

Now, except for Jeff Kline and Brian Michaels, i have over the years met everyone on this list. These are people i have loked up to and have enormous respect for. Had it not been for the efforts and visions of these individuals there would be no Rainbow Family for the likes of Preacha to whine about. If Rainbow was a corporation, these individuals would have their pictures on the wall. Everything i have experienced in Rainbow i owe to the dedication of these individuals. Over the years of attending gatherings i have come to personally trust these individuals unconditionally.They are the folks i introduce to newbies as the heart and soul of Rainbow.

To have worms like Preacha and Sailor - neither of whom's contribution even remotely matches either one of these individuals - drag their names in innuendo, lies, and paranoid ranting is to me unreal. If these individuals are meeting with the Forest Service, then i am proud that Rainbow can produce such fine individuals to represent us.

So what's next Billy?

Are you going to reveal that Badger stole a tricycle when he was 3? Or perhaps Barry Adams didn't pay his income taxes? What soried tales are you going to produce to make yourself and your pathic pals look rightous?

You, and the rest of your sad group of anti-permit witch hunters are not what Rainbow was, is, or will be. i am confident that the future of Rainbow looks a hellva lot brighter with a "Rainbow Mangement Team" composed of these individuals that having Rainbow dictated by fanatic like you.

Yes, i respect my Elders - those who have earned my respect, admiration, and trust. And the list you have produced shows me that anybody who **fears** our involvement with the Forest Service has nothing to worry about.

You are an angry, jealouse, insecure individual who will attach himself to confusion and fear in order to make himself look big. Preacha and Sailor,

Go find yourself another group that you can make yourself look big. we already have those in the family that have proven themselves.

namaste;
bodhi


From: William O'Leary (wole...@compu-savers.net)
Subject: Boy, did I call this one....
Date: 2004-01-08 10:19:15 PST

For months all I heard was the bitching and whining of people "post the names, post the names, post the names".

What did I say would happen??? did I not say that even if I did they would do 1 of 2 things: 1) they would say that they don't believe me, or 2) they would try to explain the list away.

Well, there you have it pholks the list is revealed and as predicted both thing have happened.

I kept telling people that they did not have to take my word for it.... they could contact the USFS region 5 Special Use coordinator and get the names themselves.... hell, you could still do that.... or show up at the meeting and speak with her yourself and find out.

1 person even claims that nobody on the list has ever applied for a permit.... Hmmm, lets see on the list those that have applied for a permit are:

Jeff Kline (Idaho)
Garrick Beck (Utah)

Those that have applied and were granted permits:

Garrick Beck (Utah)

Hmmm, now it would seem that this person claiming such has their head up their ass or refuses to deal with facts.

Well, all I can say is I hope that pholks are happy with their self appointed leaders.... remeber these names and look at what they have done in the past 5 years and watch what they do in the next 3 years.

Barry Adams (profeesional bullshitter and fence sitter)
Garrick Beck (permit signer)
Brian Michaels (wannabe lawyer)
Jeff Kline (permit signer)
John Buffalo (supposed boyfriend of a fence sitter and supporter of Garrick and Mr. Adams)
Badger (self appointed "sanctioned scout")
Whistler Dave (Part of the Florida hijackings)

BTW, there is a choice that each individual has.... you could just not attend any event hosted by this group of people and the USFS.... OR, you could support the efforts of others that are seeking to hold a FREE assembly elsewhere.

You have no leaders, nobody has the right to sign on your behalf for any reason on any legally binding document, you do have a choice.

Please, if you support free assembly contact the Ozark regiona pholks and encourage them and support them in their efforts to host a permit free assembly for those that do not want to be enslaved to the "National Rainbow Management Team".

Imagine, if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about.

--
All the best for LESS !!!
Compu-Savers
http://www.compu-savers.net


From: RiverRat32134 (riverrat32...@aol.comTruth)
Subject: Re: Boy, did I call this one....
Date: 2004-01-08 12:47:38 PST

From: William O'Leary wole...@compu-savers.net
Date: 1/8/04 1:19 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <DahLb.33266$IM3.4...@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net

Subject: Boy, did I call this one....

For months all I heard was the bitching and whining of people "post the names, post the names, post the names".
...

Damn its good when a thought out plan, fell just like you said it would. I thought that more Permits were signed for Nationals than that. <ommitted> has already signed the one for this years 2004 Ocala Gathering. Names, dates and places. It don`t get any better than that. later RR


From: Principle (matte...@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Boy, did I call this one....
Date: 2004-01-08 15:24:06 PST

William O'Leary <wole...@compu-savers.net> wrote in message news:<DahLb.33266$IM3.4...@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...

> For months all I heard was the bitching and whining of people "post the names, post the names, post the names".
...
> Jeff Kline (Idaho)
> Garrick Beck (Utah)

Actually, one of the signers of the first Permit Application was Plunker. Without an application no permit would have been issued. It was approved and signed by others.

In Michigan Brian Michaels spent quite a bit of time calling people to his room at the casino, where the FS LEOs also stayed, trying to get someone to sign a permit. No one would, which shows how much support there is for a permit. Keep in mind that Plunker, Beck, and Michaels do not want Sacharow involved, he would have signed if asked, and come to think about it Sacharow did apply for a permit in Michigan.

Don't forget what it was Brian Michaels, at Michigan TGC, said of the permit; "It is only ink on paper, and means nothing." This from an attorney? Signing a contract with the governmental bureaucracy is irrelevant? Wow! I have not had a conversation with him since.

> Those that have applied and were granted permits:
...
> John Buffalo (supposed boyfriend of a fence sitter and supporter of Garrick and Mr. Adams)
> Badger (self appointed "sanctioned scout")
> Whistler Dave (Part of the Florida hijackings)

John Buffalo is actually Brian Michaels playmate more than he is a supporter of anything other than having a peaceful gathering. Yes, he does have 'fence sitting' friends, but I would say most of us do. Bill, please don't say "not me" -meaning you- as you would leave yourself wide open to wisecracking.


From: William O'Leary (wole...@compu-savers.net)
Subject: Re: Boy, did I call this one....
Date: 2004-01-08 15:39:40 PST

Principle wrote:

Let me just start by saying that one of the things I admire about you Stephen is that you know the story.... you have been there and back.... and still refuse to give in.

> Actually, one of the signers of the first Permit Application was Plunker. Without an application no permit would have been issued. It was approved and signed by others.

Oh yeah, that's right.... but let us not forget his "I am 100% agains permits" statement.

> In Michigan Brian Michaels spent quite a bit of time calling people to his room at the casino, where the FS LEOs also stayed, trying to get someone to sign a permit.

Who was it that got their picture taken with Malcom at the slots ???

> No one would, which shows how much support there is for a permit.

According to them they have the majority of the support.... funny thing is that I never thought that the "Rainbow Family" worked on majority rule

> Keep in mind that Plunker, Beck, and Michaels do not want Sacharow involved, he would have signed if asked, and come to think about it Sacharow did apply for a permit in Michigan.

He applied for one for the site across the road.... and the USFS spent the first 3-4 days trying to get people to go over there.... that was funny.

> Don't forget what it was Brian Michaels, at Michigan TGC, said of the permit; "It is only ink on paper, and means nothing." This from an attorney? Signing a contract with the governmental bureaucracy is irrelevant? Wow! I have not had a conversation with him since.

Boy, I know I want him representing me in court.

> John Buffalo is actually Brian Michaels playmate more than he is a supporter of anything other than having a peaceful gathering. Yes, he does have 'fence sitting' friends, but I would say most of us do. Bill, please don't say "not me" -meaning you- as you would leave yourself wide open to wisecracking.

Actually, most of my friends here in San Antonio are fence sitters.... I tell them such as well.

BUT, I would say that those I call "friend" are against permits.... as far as Bread of Life they could really care less becuz they have a reason for going other than the whole hoopla of what others say a Gatheirng is.... they understand that my reasons differ from theirs and we agree to disagree.... and the amazing thing is that they respect me and I respect them.

Which of course blows out of the water that theory that I am an asshole to everyone I disagree with.

--
All the best for LESS !!!
Compu-Savers
http://www.compu-savers.net


From: bodhi (The_Psychedelic_Tour...@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Boy, did I call this one....
Date: 2004-01-08 15:51:57 PST

William O'Leary wrote in message:

> BTW, there is a choice that each individual has.... you could just not attend any event hosted by this group of people and the USFS.... OR, you could support the efforts of others that are seeking to hold a FREE assembly elsewhere.

...er....You forgot a third choice:

You could quit you snivelling and bitchin', and yer "WAWAAAAA,I'm taking my ball home 'cause the boys don't play FAIR....." attitude and attend the 2004 Annual in California and do what Rainbow does best - feed kids....er....remember ...feeding kids?????? You can pack a bowl,a cup,and a spoon, and leave all the bitchin' and whinin' and politics at home- and have fun. Or, you can sulk and snivel and cause a fuss and let EVERYBODY IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD know that your diaper needs changing. Why not work in Handi camp this year, Preacha?? Then you can tell all the brothers and sister in their wheelchairs how Rainbow SUCKS! Disqusted but trying to remain patient.

namaste;
bodhi


From: William O'Leary (wole...@compu-savers.net)
Subject: Re: Boy, did I call this one....
Date: 2004-01-08 16:14:28 PST

bodhi wrote:

> ...er....You forgot a third choice:

Hmmm, there's a 3rd choice ???

> You could quit you snivelling and bitchin', and yer "WAWAAAAA,I'm taking my ball home 'cause the boys don't play FAIR....." attitude and attend the 2004 Annual in California and do what Rainbow does best -

First off I no longer attend USFS events.... and what do "drainbows" do best ??? sign permits of course.

> feed kids....er....remember ...feeding kids??????

Oh, so what you saying is that if the pholks in the Ozarks won't feed people that show up ???

> You can pack a bowl,a cup,and a spoon, and leave all the bitchin' and whinin' and politics at home- and have fun.

Sorry, nothing you can say will get me to compromise what I believe in and stand for.

> Or, you can sulk and snivel and cause a fuss and let EVERYBODY IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD know that your diaper needs changing.

Great, why not come down here and change it if you think you're man enough to.

> Why not work in Handi camp this year, Preacha??

Becuz I won't be there.... kinda hard to be working in San Antonio and be at the USFS event.... unlike you when I give my word to a friend I actually keep it.

> Then you can tell all the brothers and sister in their wheelchairs how Rainbow SUCKS!

Rainbow does suck but they don't need me to tell them that.

> Disqusted but trying to remain patient.

So, what's happening with that fake employer with her fake lawyer ??? I figured with that HUGE file they have built up with all those fake charges that I would be sitting behind bars by now.... guess that was all a bunch of fake hot air on your part.

Fire away dumbass.

> namaste;

And the joke continues..... Namaste, meaning the size 10 at the end of my leg seeks out the back side of you.

Now there is your threat now call your fake employer and have her call her fake lawyer and have "it" file fake charges against me.

--
All the best for LESS !!!
Compu-Savers
http://www.compu-savers.net


From: Thunder (thunder5200nos...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Boy, did I call this one....
Date: 2004-01-08 20:51:02 PST

"William O'Leary" <wole...@compu-savers.net> wrote in message news:DnmLb.16908$6B.7...@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...

> bodhi wrote:

> > Or, you can sulk and snivel and cause a fuss and let EVERYBODY IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD know that your diaper needs changing.

> Great, why not come down here and change it if you think you're man enough to.

E - w - w - w - w - w ! !

Gross.

All kidding aside, someone was giving you a put-down for wanting to help your friends run their fireworks stand during the time of the gathering as if to suggest you are somehow spiritually bereft or otherwise diminished by doing so. I say you only live once, and that being true to yourself and doing the things you aspire to do rather than not doing them is a serious commitment to fulfillment regardless of what many higher holiers might have to say. It also sounded from your description that you are quite an asset to your friends' efforts and success, and despite the fact some may scoff at the goals and aspirations of others, I say that as long as no one's being harmed, go for it. Beats the shit out of revengefully killing 10 or 20 thousand innocent people in retribution for the WTC, and wasting 500 American 'poker chips' in the process of securing the ace of spades.

"I say, bring 'em on!" GWB


From: William O'Leary (wole...@compu-savers.net)
Subject: Re: Boy, did I call this one....
Date: 2004-01-08 21:51:45 PST

Thunder wrote:

> E - w - w - w - w - w ! !
> Gross.

Whaaaaa.... Boobie my diaper is dirty again.... Whaaaaa

> All kidding aside, someone was giving you a put-down for wanting to help your friends run their fireworks stand during the time of the gathering as if to suggest you are somehow spiritually bereft or otherwise diminished by doing so.

Hammer meet nail.... Ouch, right on the head !!!

> I say you only live once,

This will actually be the 3rd time I have worked for Scott.... I'm his #1 salesman.

There is one section in the warehouse the he puts me becuz he knows I can sell the stuff.... ARTILLERY !!!! not sure if you know anything about fireworks but artillery is sort of like mortar rounds.... you have a tube the load goes into and you shoot it off.

These are some of the more expensive displays.... they range from $24.95 all the way up to $149.

The 2 biggest are the Big Tex at $149 and the Code Red at $99.... he was open for a week and sold not one fo these.... I got there and within 30 minutes I sold 3 of each.

By the time we closed down at 11pm on 12/31 we had not many Code Reds left and about half the stock of Big Tex.

Where I grew up (Mass-of-dumb-shits) fireworks are illegal (unless of course you're Chinese).... I never knew about fireworks until I moved to Texas.

> and that being true to yourself and doing the things you aspire to do rather than not doing them is a serious commitment to fulfillment regardless of what many higher holiers might have to say.

I love working at the stand.... I love selling.... I love interacting with people.

Funny thing is that Da Boobie seems to think that if he harasses me enough that I will go back on my word to Scott and go to teh USFS event.... boy, is he ever wrong.

Unlike him when I tell a friend that I will do something for tehm I carry through on my word.

Another friend I promised to work for is Tim from Tees-Dyes.... he will have a booth at Bonnaroo and I told him that I would be there to help out.

> It also sounded from your description that you are quite an asset to your friends' efforts and success,

Scott and his wife love me.... I am a natural salesman.... I can seel the Pope condoms, I could sell ice to polar bears, I could sell a Budhist a cheeseburger.

> and despite the fact some may scoff at the goals and aspirations of others, I say that as long as no one's being harmed, go for it.

Nope, far as I know nobody is being hurt.... unless of course they are stupid enough to stand there holding a mortar round in their hand as it blows up.... at that time you are to stupid to be playing with explosives.

> Beats the shit out of revengefully killing 10 or 20 thousand innocent people in retribution for the WTC, and wasting 500 American 'poker chips in the process of securing the ace of spades.

Now, correct me if I am wrong but isn't that the card you want to throw out first if trump is broken ??? I know the Queen is worht 13 points so that should go before or just after the Ace.

Unless of course that is assuming you are playing Spades.

> "I say, bring 'em on!" GWB

Yeah, I always knew that Mini Shrub wasn't playing with a full deck

--
All the best for LESS !!!
Compu-Savers
http://www.compu-savers.net


From: leah 2saints (ldoss...@deans.umd.edu)
Subject: Re: Boy, did I call this one....
Date: 2004-01-10 00:31:51 PST

William O'Leary wrote:

He applied for one for the site across the road.... and the USFS spent the first 3-4 days trying to get people to go over there.... that was funny.

Seriously, Bill??? I hadn't known that. Shit, that IS funny!! Don't understand why Garrick didn't want to associate with Barry. Don't they have the same basic agenda??

And about John and Karin, I know, I have said what I have said, but I think it's unfair to lump their intentions in with the others. I admire Karin's tenacity and willingness to do what she can to "make the system work" for Rainbow, even if I don't believe there's anything really, that can be gained from it. Some of the documentation she gets and does report here, amidst the jabs and sneers at her (which really takes someone with strength of character) is actually invaluable. I have to say that the "escort" she has provided for the USFS-- her own self, observing their lack of respect for the family is particularly useful, considering the fact that she is documenting her reports to the authorities. Bash lawyers all you want, but plenty of us will be using them in the future with or without permits at gatherings, and this is the kind of stuff that is prudent.

Yes. I know it sounds contradictory, but perhaps my feelings about this are felt by many more than myself, us fencesitters, all... since I can recell, it's always been a terrible choice, fight the good fight from withIN the system, or from withOUT the system. Often it's a difficult choice. I have chosen withOUT the system, b/c there is nothing that the USFS have to offer us, and much that they can take from us. But I do admire the spunk and the spirit of those that are honest about their feelings and that truly believe that there is hope in fighting from withIN.

A little introspective, at 3:30 A.M.,
Leah DosSantos, leah 2saints


From: leah 2saints (ldoss...@deans.umd.edu)
Subject: Re: Boy, did I call this one....
Date: 2004-01-10 00:47:46 PST

bodhi wrote:

> Always. And, the kids tend to be just that. Kids.

This is frustrating. WHY is it that Kinda, and now Bodhi are harping on feeding kids... like that's the whole concept behind Rainbow. Want to feed a kid? There's huge ghettoes in the cities, where most hungry kids ARE, or in backwoods spots, like some spots in Appalachia. Hell, I KNOW about feeding em, cause that's what we do (meaning I do, with the Community for Creative Non Violence), here in Washington DC, twice a month, AND our Food Bank can always use volunteers

Sorry, this pisses me off. Kids without dads, with moms whacked out on crack, thinking they're getting slick, using the Food Bank's supply, that they've got away with something (??!!) when they remember that they HAVE kids, that is. Then, when the food stamps have run out or been sold, they're in line, and bold, arguing over how many bags of day old donuts and english muffins they can get, while the kids are in the street, dodging cars. The children noting a half eaten apple, or partly smushed and eaten bag of chips on the floor of the back seat of your car when you pull in, and suddenly, they're bold, wistfully asking if they can have that. What you thought was trash you hadn't cleaned out yet. So, please don't make this about the kids, and feeding them again, OK?? I always thought Rainbow to be more a spiritual venture.

thanks,
leah 2saints


From: Karin Zirk (kz...@earthlink.net)
Subject: USFS Meeting Opportunity
Date: 2004-01-08 21:37:37 PST

Since I've been making the rounds with my elected officials for three years trying to get them to talk to the head of the USFS about making changes to the regulations, I might as well take this chance to present my case directly to the head of the USFS. Seems like Saturday's meeting is an opportunity to do so.

I am bringing my marked up copy of the regs with the changes that I want to see. For those who don't know or may have forgotten, I've been asking for the following:

* Liability remains with the individual

* No signature requirement for non-commercial group use that is not sponsored by some legal entity (like the Boy Scouts)

* An unsigned operation plan to be worked out with attendees of the event.

* Some individuals attending the event will offer their contact information as contacts to the USFS (No limitation on the number of said contacts).

* Change the permit to a reservation for use of USFS lands.

As a citizen of this country, I will take the opportunity to speak with the people who work for me when ever I can.

I hope other people come prepared with specific changes they would like to see.

Karin


From: BJ (rainbowho...@juno.com)
Subject: Re: USFS Meeting Opportunity
Date: 2004-01-09 12:38:07 PST

Karin Zirk <kz...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3FFE3E1E.7...@earthlink.net>...

> Since I've been making the rounds with my elected officials for three years trying to get them to talk to the head of the USFS about making changes to the regulations, I might as well take this chance to present my case directly to the head of the USFS. Seems like Saturday's meeting is an opportunity to do so.
...
> I hope other people come prepared with specific changes they would like to see.

Karin,

I would ask you (or anybody)torethink the suggestion of "contact persons". I personally believe there are other ways to fullfill whatever needs such an idea might accomplish. But I feel that ANYONE being a "contact person" is a very very very bad idea. It not only has a smack of "representation" too it... it sets individuals up to have some kind of leadership role within the gathering dynamics itself.

Having offical/non offical "contact persons" is a nasty embrio to continuing family politics. There is no honest need for ANY kind of "contact person" (that can't be met in some other way) Please do not pursue the deception of what a "contact person" means when it comes to the freedom & indavidualism that is represented by rainbow gatherings.

A "contact person" can have too much power and influence over a gathering and should not be an acceptable choice, regardless of ones intentions.

The forest service has many other options available to get any needed information out to the public (which is what a "rainbow gathering" is made up of, as Sanity points out)... and it should go without saying that there are plenty of ways for any information needing to GET to the forset service, already in exsistents - or could be created if needed WITHOUT having to create some kind of "contact person"

"contact person" = bad mojo

Just my humble opinion of course, not sure how others feel about it..... BJ


From: woodstock (thirdwavevisi...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: USFS Meeting Opportunity
Date: 2004-01-09 13:30:37 PST

"BJ" <rainbowho...@juno.com> wrote in message news:9fce0b16.0401091238.6f594...@posting.google.com...

> Karin Zirk <kz...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3FFE3E1E.7...@earthlink.net>...

> > Since I've been making the rounds with my elected officials for three years trying to get them to talk to the head of the USFS about making changes to the regulations, I might as well take this chance to present my case directly to> the head of the USFS. Seems like Saturday's meeting is an opportunity to do so.
...

> "contact person" = bad mojo
> Just my humble opinion of course, not sure how others feel about it..... BJ

Wonders never cease- hallebalujah! Eventually, all the "contact" people get ticketed. Weird, eh?

-woodstock-


From: Karin Zirk (kz...@earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: USFS Meeting Opportunity
Date: 2004-01-11 16:48:14 PST

BJ wrote:

> Karin,
> I would ask you (or anybody)torethink the suggestion of "contact persons". I personally believe there are other ways to fullfill whatever needs such an idea might accomplish.
...
> Just my humble opinion of course, not sure how others feel about it..... BJ

Thank you for sharing your comments - I think it is wonderful to have people discuss potentials in such a positive and thoughtful way.

I can respect your position of a "contact person" having or feeling they have authority. However, I also feel that it's not unreasonable for the USFS to have contacts in lieu of a signature.

I believe that people have served as contact individuals with the USFS for years. I guess I just envision a list of 10 to 500 people who are willing to communicate with the USFS as being a way to accommodate the USFS need for order, with our need for disorder.

For example, while we are on the land, a cooperations council process could by used to coordinate with the USFS. However, after clean up is finished, individuals on the contact list could be sent the clean up report or be contact with any issues.

It's hard to find an interface between cultures without making some methodology of intersection. I also think that power tripping happens when we as individual gatherers allow it to happen. I don't believe that the USFS should be the agency that prevents power tripping from happening - that is the responsibility of people at the gathering.

In regards to the power issue, I am advocating for no limits on the number of contact people to minimize any ego tripping or manipulations.

As I work on trying to change the regulations in a way that works for me and many other people I have spoken with, I also encourage others to work on changing the regulations to what they would like to see. The changes I would like to see are not just for the Rainbow Gatherings, but for other non-hierarchial groups I am or have been envolved with, or groups that may not yet exist, but want to form some time of event in a non-hierarchial manner.

I would love to continue this discussion and would love to hear other people's feedback as well.

Love,
Karin


From: Principle (matte...@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: USFS Meeting Opportunity
Date: 2004-01-12 00:59:01 PST

Karin Zirk <kz...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<4001EEC7.2...@earthlink.net>...

> BJ wrote:

> > Karin,
> > I would ask you (or anybody)torethink the suggestion of "contact> > persons". I personally believe there are other ways to fullfill

...
> I would love to continue this discussion and would love to hear other people's feedback as well.
> Love, Karin

Well Karin, your rational for "contact Person-s" is nice and tidy. It allows the bureaucracy to ignore the people, single out a few, and control the whole.

It is also were Gathering got twisted around. New People stopped participating while "olders" assumed control - not necessarily nefariously but the result was the same.

It is not contact people that are needed - where the forest officer has to run around looking for Joe, Sally, Betsy, Dan, Moe, Larry and/or Curly, then needing "at least three" etc. Rather what worked "early on" was each place had its function. General, overall, or non-specific information and concerns were handled at Main Council Area. Council would stop, deal with the Forest Service Folks, then resume.

Other "stations" or functioning locations would deal with specifics of that function i.e. parking - dealt with parking, supply, CALM, WelcomeHome, TrailHead, etc.

This worked well, involved more folks in the "Workshop in Self Governance" and maintained continuity throughout the Gathering.

This was problematic for the "enforcers" as there were not specific individuals to hold liable, or demand favorable responsiveness from. When "Contact Person" was "official-ized" there were those only too ready and willing to become Judas Goats - maybe unknowingly, may be the incorrect wording - but still, our egos led and decisions became deceptions.

I'm glad to read that you like dialogue. I only hope that this desire carries over to all issues, happens in advance of decisions, actions, interactions, and not only exist for that which you choose to promote.

I believe its time to return to decentralized gathering.

I could probably say all this better, maybe later I will, but its late and I just returned home and I'm tired or tiered. It was not a fun drive and Monday Morning is fast approaching.

Stephen Principle

"They made us many promises, more than I can remember, but they never kept but one; They promised to take our land, and they took it." --Red Cloud


From: Sanity-Clause (Sanity-Cla...@worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: USFS Meeting Opportunity
Date: 2004-01-12 05:51:36 PST

Karin Zirk wrote:

> BJ wrote:

> > Karin,
> > I would ask you (or anybody)torethink the suggestion of "contact persons". I personally believe there are other ways to fullfill whatever needs such an idea might accomplish.

...
> I can respect your position of a "contact person" having or feeling they have authority. However, I also feel that it's not unreasonable for the USFS to have contacts in lieu of a signature.

Does "not unreasonable" = reasonable, Karin? Since a signature is an illicit use of folks power of attorney without their permission [representation sans election or even color of election] how could it be reasonable to require unelected representatives elsewhere?

Sanity


From: bodhi (The_Psychedelic_Tour...@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: USFS Meeting Opportunity
Date: 2004-01-12 09:33:23 PST

What is find problematic in the Rainbow Family is the distrust of authority and leadership. When someone takes the lead on any project other will accuse him/her of "power tripping". There must be some way we can trust those who focalize and take the lead in making decisions. But it seems that just the very act of assuming such a position marks the person as untrustworthy. Just a thought.

namaste;
bodhi


From: Sailor (x...@earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: USFS Meeting Opportunity
Date: 2004-01-13 11:00:28 PST

bodhi wrote:

> What is find problematic in the Rainbow Family is the distrust of authority and leadership. When someone takes the lead on
...

Trust is earned -- Those folks who have shown by their past deeds to be trustworthy do not have any problem with distrust.


From: Karin Zirk (kz...@earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: USFS Meeting Opportunity
Date: 2004-01-13 17:38:47 PST

Principle wrote:

> Well Karin, your rational for "contact Person-s" is nice and tidy. It allows the bureaucracy to ignore the people, single out a few, and control the whole.
> Stephen Principle
> "They made us many promises, more than I can remember, but they never kept but one; They promised to take our land, and they took it." --Red Cloud

I think you have raised some good points. With contact people it is possible for the USFS to single people out.

I proposed "contact people" in conjunction with another very important point "An unsigned operating plan worked out with attendees of the event." I do not propose nor want "contact people" without "an unsigned ..."

I believe that according to the USFS process, first notification would be made of a intention to use a specific site along with the list of contact names. Then if said 'application' was accepted, the process for both the USFS and the gathering would move on to hammering out an unsigned operating plan with whoever the USFS wants and "attendees of the event" - which in my mind are individuals on the land who want to participate in the process.

I would hope that during process we have to work out the operating plan with the USFS, we would also include some stipulation that the USFS continue to meet with this process as the event unfolds.

If the operating plan is truly worked out on the land with "attendees of the event", then said attendees could insist in this operating plan that all communciations between the USFS and the gathering take place as part of a council process.

I believe this could work. In my mind, the contact names only serve a purpose to reassure the USFS that there is someone with whom they can communciate after the gathering is over if some issue comes up in Septemer or October for instance.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Karin


From: Principle (matte...@yahoo.com)
Subject: For whom is he speaking for now?
Date: 2004-01-09 00:34:54 PST

peacetri...@wildrockies.org wrote:

>Annual Gathering of the Tribes 2004
>In July, there is to be an Annual Gathering, We who are sisters and brothers, children of humankind, friends of nature & all people, Families of life on Earth, recognizing the living spirit of light and love and calling ourselves "rainbow gathering tribes, people", Do humbly invite ... All People, All our Relations, to a Gathering, near NORTHERN CALIFORNIA, or Nevada, Utah regions, at and around July 1~7, 2004 on national forest, public land .... to a Popular Peaceable Assembly for purposes of expression, and on July 4th, and at Noon, to Circle in Silence, offering our most sincere prayers and petitions for Peace on Earth and the Positive Ecolution of humankind in harmony with nature, restoring balance to our beloved Earth planetHome.

Looks like this 'Invitation' came from the same source as the news of a meeting this Saturday in San Francisco, between "interested individuals and Undersecretary of Agriculture Mark Rey, and a couple of District Rangers from California, concerning issues in regards to "Rainbow Gatherings".

By the way, Rey is the political appointment guy at USDA who oversees the Forest Service... used to be a forests products lobbyist.

Keep in mind the FS agreed to this meeting to "talk about (operational) 'issues for this upcoming Gathering' AND 'work out ways to REDUCE THE LAW ENFORCEMENT BUDGET BY 50%'." However it was set up on the condition of not discussing the permit issue. Any change since is irrelevant and only political ass covering now.

This was not mentioned in the meeting announcement, where instead the meeting was touted to "be open, be free etc... all things on the table..."

There is also a "Circle of individuals" planned on Friday Jan. 9 in Golden Gate Park -- I forget all the wording used, but essentially a "Pre-Ray" meeting which will, by all appearances, look like it's creating a Rainbow Family delegation.

Curious... the announcement says: "RAINBOW FAMILY IS NOT ATTENDING THIS MEETING... [and] NO AGREEEMENTS WILL BE BEING MADE BY RAINBOW FAMILY". Strange to talk this way about something that does not exist and cannot do ANYTHING... and yet make this new announcement, stand up and negotiate as agents for others -- or whatever "group" winds up holding a permit or subject to an Operating Plan, under whatever name.

Then on Sunday (the day following the Ray Meeting) there will be another meeting called "co-operations", where the plotting and planning for the Annual Rainbow Gathering will 'purportedly' be done. Not mentioned is the fact that this work did NOT get done at "Thanksgiving Council 2003", as is the custom.

So the "consensus by silence to carry on the family co-operations process" really meant that a few folks would take all the decisions OUTSIDE that process.

This new announcement - 2004 Invitation- looks and sounds a lot like some body of "interested" people are holding or sponsoring this event. So it appears that these folks are 'doing their own thing' and usurping the Annual Rainbow Gathering.


From: William O'Leary (wole...@compu-savers.net)
Subject: Re: For whom is he speaking for now?
Date: 2004-01-09 04:08:37 PST

Principle wrote:

> --- peacetri...@wildrockies.org wrote:

[SNIP]

>>Do humbly invite ... All People, All our Relations,
>>to a Gathering, near NORTHERN CALIFORNIA, or>>Nevada, Utah regions,

Hmmm, seems that the location of this USFS event ahs already been decided.... or am I reading the emphasis in this sentence wrong ???

What happened to Spring council ??? what if pholks show up and reach consensus on Nevada ??? or Utah again ??? then what ???

>>to a Popular Peaceable Assembly for purposes of expression,

Expression of what ???

>>and on July 4th, and at Noon, to Circle in Silence,offering our most sincere prayers and petitions for Peace on Earth and the Positive Ecolution of humankind in harmony with nature, restoring balance to our beloved Earth planetHome.

What if someone does not want to attend becuz he and his henchmen are yet again taking over as self imposed learders ???

Are they wrong for wanting to do this elsewhere ???

> Looks like this 'Invitation' came from the same source as the news of a meeting this Saturday in San Francisco, between "interested individuals and Undersecretary of Agriculture Mark Rey, and a couple of District Rangers from California, concerning issues in regards to "Rainbow Gatherings".

BINGO !!! seems that the leaders are being made known.

> By the way, Rey is the political appointment guy at USDA who oversees the Forest Service... used to be a forests products lobbyist.

Shhh, the fence sitters and permit signers don't want anyone to know this.

> Keep in mind the FS agreed to this meeting to "talk about (operational) 'issues for this upcoming Gathering' AND 'work out ways to REDUCE THE LAW ENFORCEMENT BUDGET BY 50%'." However it was set up on the condition of not discussing the permit issue. Any change since is irrelevant and only political ass covering now.

Hmmm, nice how the agenda of this meeting was dictate far in advance

> This was not mentioned in the meeting announcement, where instead the meeting was touted to "be open, be free etc... all things on the table..."

Better to lie to the people than deal openly and honestly with them

> There is also a "Circle of individuals" planned on Friday Jan. 9 in Golden Gate Park -- I forget all the wording used, but essentially a "Pre-Ray" meeting which will, by all appearances, look like it's creating a Rainbow Family delegation.

I suspect that certain "loud mouths" will be told by the leadership (NRMT) that their presence is not welcomed at this meeting.... I see this pre-meeting as their means of weeding out who they do not like.

> Curious... the announcement says: "RAINBOW FAMILY IS NOT ATTENDING THIS MEETING... [and] NO AGREEEMENTS WILL BE BEING MADE BY RAINBOW FAMILY". Strange to talk this way about something that does not exist and cannot do ANYTHING... and yet make this new announcement, stand up and negotiate as agents for others -- or whatever "group" winds up holding a permit or subject to an Operating Plan, under whatever name.

Hmmmm, interesting points.... that is right though.... the "Rainbow Family" is not attending this meeting and no decisions will be reached by the "Rainbow Family".... it is the "National Rainbow Management Team" consisting of the person that sent out this announcement and several others that will be attending and making such decision for the "Rainbow Family" as self appointed leaders.

One of the things that these self imposed leaders neglect is the council process where the "Rainbow Family" reaches consensus.... the reason for neglecting this council process is that they know that they will never get consensus for what they want to do.

> Then on Sunday (the day following the Ray Meeting) there will be another meeting called "co-operations", where the plotting and planning for the Annual Rainbow Gathering will 'purportedly' be done.

Well, like I said it would seem that the location for this USFS event has already been decided.... here's a question: are there any such meetings scheduled with the region 4 people ??? why are all of these meetings focused on region 5 ??? was not the consensus for Utah, Nevad and California ??? looking at teh USFS regional map Utah and Nevada are in region 4.

Looks as if these self imposed leaders have once again altogether ignored the council process for their own agenda.

> Not mentioned is the fact that this work did NOT get done at "Thanksgiving Council 2003", as is the custom.

I say if it was not taken care of then it is a dead issue

> So the "consensus by silence to carry on the family co-operations process" really meant that a few folks would take all the decisions OUTSIDE that process.

That has already been tried.... pholks got all bent out of shape

> This new announcement - 2004 Invitation- looks and sounds a lot like some body of "interested" people are holding or sponsoring this event.

I gave it until 2007 that pholks would see what was once a Rainbow Gathering becoming nothing more than a commercial event that you need to pay to get into.... lets see what happens.

BUT, regardless if pholks want to look at the facts or not once a permit is signed it becomes a USFS santioned and supprted event.

> So it appears that these folks are 'doing their own thing' and usurping the Annual Rainbow Gathering.

Ya think ?!?! boy, I have been saying this for 3 years and have taken much shit over it.... wonder how much you'll get for saying such ???

BUT, just so pholks are aware here is the list of self imposed leaders involved with the "National Rainbow Management Team":

Barry Adams

Garrick Beck

Brian Michaels

Jeff Kline

John Buffalo

Badger

Whistler Dave

If you do attend this USFS event by all means seek out these people and tell them that they are NOT your leaders and that they have NO RIGHT speaking for you, or signing your rights away without your consent.

[NOTE: I foresee that this will be seen as yet another death threat by these paranoid self imposed leaders]

--
All the best for LESS !!!
Compu-Savers
http://www.compu-savers.net


From: Thunder (thunder5200nos...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: For whom is he speaking for now?
Date: 2004-01-09 08:58:03 PST

"Principle" <matte...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f029cceb.0401090034.68c52...@posting.google.com...

> --- peacetri...@wildrockies.org wrote:

> > Keep in mind the FS agreed to this meeting to "talk about (operational) 'issues for this upcoming Gathering' AND 'work out ways to REDUCE THE LAW ENFORCEMENT BUDGET BY 50%

How tough can it be?

("Just say no.")

-Nancy Reagan

Maybe they've already had their LEO budget reduced by 50%, and are using this 'event' as a grandstanding opportunity to show the kinder, gentler face of low-budget law enforcement, with input from the crowd.

Constructive suggestions for reducing LEO costs:

1. No tickets for nudity

2. No tickets for gathering without a permit

3. No mounted color guard ceremony during the silence

4. No overtime pay for unnecessary patrolling of peaceful free assembly

5. No FS-generated public meetings amongst the townsfolk of surrounding areas for the purpose of poisoning public perception against gatherers

This should help by at least 50%

 

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